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Author Topic: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view  (Read 9697 times)

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Offline Classanr

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NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« on: March 23, 2014, 04:43:39 PM »
My 4" Earl came in.  The first thing I did was clean.  The second was to load it with digital calipers.  Measurements and initial discussion about how this C&B works can be seen at

trac-r.com/c&b/pdf/CutawayChamberView.pdf

I am duly impressed with the design.  Them guys in Tannenberg during early use of BP sure did hit upon a great scheme, and Dick Casull did a great job of bringing the design into the modern age.

Photos of Earl later.  Powder tests some time in May.  I need to get back on track with the book.  Life got in the way.
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Offline Kaboom

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2014, 06:32:15 PM »
Great first impressions and info on the loading. I would kind of like to get one, but since I have severely limited resources, it must take a back seat to other priorities. Looking forward to the test firing results. Pictures sure would be nice.... hint hint.

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Offline BOOMSTICK BRUCE

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2014, 10:23:24 AM »
ok so through all the testing we NAA C&B owners have done, 4f, 3f, trip7, smokeless, hand ground flash powder (me), no one has said how much smokeless one of these needs to be a true "magnum" or if it is even possible. what is the powder measure for a .22wmr?
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Offline Classanr

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2014, 09:57:26 PM »
ok so through all the testing we NAA C&B owners have done, 4f, 3f, trip7, smokeless, hand ground flash powder (me), no one has said how much smokeless one of these needs to be a true "magnum" or if it is even possible. what is the powder measure for a .22wmr?

Technically, .22WMR has 50% more powder space under the base of the bullet than does the NAA 22MAG.  That does not discourage me, because the powder chambers are considerably different, and the nature in which the powder is ignited is considerably different.  For example, Honda did quite nicely in F1 racing with a 1.6liter engine.  They followed motorcyle engine rules in their F1 to beat all the big-iron rules of the rest of the pack.

My objective is to reach (in the 4" Earl) the 1500fps that a .22WMR will reach in a pistol 6"barrel.  I might have to settle for 1350fps, the 4" velocity, but I think 1500fps might be doable, for the following reasons:

1. The .22WMR reaches 2300 ft in a 24" barrel for a 30gr bullet.  There is considerable drop in velocity when 18" is removed (2300fps->1500fps, a 34% drop in velocity).  Remove 2" more, and the velocity drops to 1350fps.  Clearly the commercial powder load is on the "slower" side to get max velocity through a long barrel.  Careful selection of commercial ammo for shorter-barrelled .22WMR chambered pistols will find 40grain bullets travelling at the 1350fps range.  On the other hand, those rounds do not reach the highest velocities out of 24" barrels.

2. I postulate that for the NAA chamber the ideal powder would be the fastest powder designed for the lowest-pressure ignition.  I believe the ideal powder will prove to be a shotgun powder that will predictably ignite even when pressure peaks (in any gun) at (or no higher than) 6200-7200 psi.  For smokeless, that's rather low, low even for BP.  These powders can be found in shotgun loading manuals.  I am not saying that only 6200psi will be generated by the NAA C&B 22MAG with these shotgun powders.  I am saying these will be the best of only a few powders that will initiate properly at a low initial psi in the NAA C&B 22MAG.  Subsequent to initial ignition, we want the pressure to *suddenly* detonate to 22,000->24,000psi to get that 30gr bullet moving at true 22WMR speeds down the 4" barrel.  Considering that 24,000psi is SAAMI for 22lr and 22WMR, the key is to reach this safe psi just as the bullet is entering the barrel.  I postulate that no BP, nor most substitutes, could push more than 12,000 psi in that short a distance.  [Here is where people who don't know squat about the NAA cylinders will apply BP rules to chamber pressures found in their non-NAA guns, and start to lay bets on how many fingers I will blow off.  But they won't flinch when they handle a 4" Earl bored *wider* for rimfire and put a 24,000psi .22WMR rifle cartridge in it.]

3. Several shooters have reached 1200fps in the NAA 4" Earl using 2gr BullsEye, with considerable powder room to spare.  However, I believe BullsEye is too slow a powder for the NAA 22MAG C&B, and that they were wise to not go above 2gr BullsEye.

4. There are now faster powders designed for better ignition at lower initial pressures than BullsEye.

5. .3cc of BullsEye throws 2.8gr weight.  .3cc of TiteWad throws 2.3gr weight.  .3cc of Clays throws 2.1gr weight.  By comparison, .3cc of TrailBoss throws 1.4gr weight.  I believe that TB will equal the performance of 4FG BP.  I will have to test, of course, but the design of the NAA 22MAG C&B is to extract all the energy from the powder at the instant of ignition.  TB is ideally designed for fluffy ignition, even though the energy per cc is (probably) less than BP.  Furthermore, TB should (in the NAA C&B 22MAG) out-perform any BP substitute that is engineered to require pre-compression to fire well.  That means Pyrodex, 777, BlackMZ, 3F and 2F will (probably) perform poorly in the NAA 22MAG.  I think you have seen reports to confirm this statement.  Most people who use those five powders have to fill above the powder chamber, and compress the powder, to reach 900fps.   Some report that they cannot even exceed 800fps.  That is because powder compression defeats the purpose of the design.

6. Initally, the NAA 22MAG C&B was designed for smokeless (a baby sister to massive Casull guns that also use this chamber principle), then migrated to BP when it was discovered that the chamber is ideal for extracting lots of energy from non-compressed FFFFG.  Historically, this has been the case for Tannenberg Gonnes, proven over and over that loose fluffy powder set off in a diesel effect works better in these chambers than does more powder packed in.  Furthermore, loose home-made powder performs better than dense commercial grades.  These factors explain why choice of powder (based on how it is designed to be loaded) makes a huge difference in velocity.

7. Most of the consumer attempts in the past few years to fuel the 22MAG C&B have been strapped to the loading rules of wide straightwalled BP chambers that are the width of the projectile (44Rem, for instance), not narrow/long chambers that are smaller in diameter than the projectile (Casull's chamber designs).  Please don't confuse the gun's design with the chamber's design.  Earl designed the gun.  Dick designed the chambers.  This is like Shelby throwing a Ford V8 into a diminutive British AC Ace and coming out with the Cobra.

8. Just as with any other heat engine, too much fuel cools off the combustion.  Gasses expand better/faster when hot.  Expanding gas propels these projectiles.  I believe any powder tried should never exceed the .3cc powder chamber volume.

9. Proper seating of the bullet is crucial.  Dick Casull found his best results by using Loctite on the bullets!

Do these observations give you some suggestions as to where I will be taking this project?
Jim Beam me, Scotty!  Life here is more intelligent than I.

Offline BOOMSTICK BRUCE

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2014, 10:58:40 PM »
ok so through all the testing we NAA C&B owners have done, 4f, 3f, trip7, smokeless, hand ground flash powder (me), no one has said how much smokeless one of these needs to be a true "magnum" or if it is even possible. what is the powder measure for a .22wmr?

Technically, .22WMR has 50% more powder space under the base of the bullet than does the NAA 22MAG.  That does not discourage me, because the powder chambers are considerably different, and the nature in which the powder is ignited is considerably different.  For example, Honda did quite nicely in F1 racing with a 1.6liter engine.  They followed motorcyle engine rules in their F1 to beat all the big-iron rules of the rest of the pack.

My objective is to reach (in the 4" Earl) the 1500fps that a .22WMR will reach in a pistol 6"barrel.  I might have to settle for 1350fps, the 4" velocity, but I think 1500fps might be doable, for the following reasons:

1. The .22WMR reaches 2300 ft in a 24" barrel for a 30gr bullet.  There is considerable drop in velocity when 18" is removed (2300fps->1500fps, a 34% drop in velocity).  Remove 2" more, and the velocity drops to 1350fps.  Clearly the commercial powder load is on the "slower" side to get max velocity through a long barrel.  Careful selection of commercial ammo for shorter-barrelled .22WMR chambered pistols will find 40grain bullets travelling at the 1350fps range.  On the other hand, those rounds do not reach the highest velocities out of 24" barrels.

2. I postulate that for the NAA chamber the ideal powder would be the fastest powder designed for the lowest-pressure ignition.  I believe the ideal powder will prove to be a shotgun powder that will predictably ignite even when pressure peaks (in any gun) at (or no higher than) 6200-7200 psi.  For smokeless, that's rather low, low even for BP.  These powders can be found in shotgun loading manuals.  I am not saying that only 6200psi will be generated by the NAA C&B 22MAG with these shotgun powders.  I am saying these will be the best of only a few powders that will initiate properly at a low initial psi in the NAA C&B 22MAG.  Subsequent to initial ignition, we want the pressure to *suddenly* detonate to 22,000->24,000psi to get that 30gr bullet moving at true 22WMR speeds down the 4" barrel.  Considering that 24,000psi is SAAMI for 22lr and 22WMR, the key is to reach this safe psi just as the bullet is entering the barrel.  I postulate that no BP, nor most substitutes, could push more than 12,000 psi in that short a distance.  [Here is where people who don't know squat about the NAA cylinders will apply BP rules to chamber pressures found in their non-NAA guns, and start to lay bets on how many fingers I will blow off.  But they won't flinch when they handle a 4" Earl bored *wider* for rimfire and put a 24,000psi .22WMR rifle cartridge in it.]

3. Several shooters have reached 1200fps in the NAA 4" Earl using 2gr BullsEye, with considerable powder room to spare.  However, I believe BullsEye is too slow a powder for the NAA 22MAG C&B, and that they were wise to not go above 2gr BullsEye.

4. There are now faster powders designed for better ignition at lower initial pressures than BullsEye.

5. .3cc of BullsEye throws 2.8gr weight.  .3cc of TiteWad throws 2.3gr weight.  .3cc of Clays throws 2.1gr weight.  By comparison, .3cc of TrailBoss throws 1.4gr weight.  I believe that TB will equal the performance of 4FG BP.  I will have to test, of course, but the design of the NAA 22MAG C&B is to extract all the energy from the powder at the instant of ignition.  TB is ideally designed for fluffy ignition, even though the energy per cc is (probably) less than BP.  Furthermore, TB should (in the NAA C&B 22MAG) out-perform any BP substitute that is engineered to require pre-compression to fire well.  That means Pyrodex, 777, BlackMZ, 3F and 2F will (probably) perform poorly in the NAA 22MAG.  I think you have seen reports to confirm this statement.  Most people who use those five powders have to fill above the powder chamber, and compress the powder, to reach 900fps.   Some report that they cannot even exceed 800fps.  That is because powder compression defeats the purpose of the design.

6. Initally, the NAA 22MAG C&B was designed for smokeless (a baby sister to massive Casull guns that also use this chamber principle), then migrated to BP when it was discovered that the chamber is ideal for extracting lots of energy from non-compressed FFFFG.  Historically, this has been the case for Tannenberg Gonnes, proven over and over that loose fluffy powder set off in a diesel effect works better in these chambers than does more powder packed in.  Furthermore, loose home-made powder performs better than dense commercial grades.  These factors explain why choice of powder (based on how it is designed to be loaded) makes a huge difference in velocity.

7. Most of the consumer attempts in the past few years to fuel the 22MAG C&B have been strapped to the loading rules of wide straightwalled BP chambers that are the width of the projectile (44Rem, for instance), not narrow/long chambers that are smaller in diameter than the projectile (Casull's chamber designs).  Please don't confuse the gun's design with the chamber's design.  Earl designed the gun.  Dick designed the chambers.  This is like Shelby throwing a Ford V8 into a diminutive British AC Ace and coming out with the Cobra.

8. Just as with any other heat engine, too much fuel cools off the combustion.  Gasses expand better/faster when hot.  Expanding gas propels these projectiles.  I believe any powder tried should never exceed the .3cc powder chamber volume.

9. Proper seating of the bullet is crucial.  Dick Casull found his best results by using Loctite on the bullets!

Do these observations give you some suggestions as to where I will be taking this project?



umm to a chrono and some ballistics gel?
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Offline Classanr

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2014, 11:09:39 PM »
Guarantee on the chrono.  I'm not convinced the gel will excite anybody.  30gr lead NAA @ 1500fps will put down a dog or coyote or raccoon.  Within 50yds.  If I can hit it.  But for larger beasts up close it will be like stabbing with an ice pick.  "And here you can see where the bullet entered the gel.  It went in a ways along this narrow path.  Then it stopped here.  I bet that really annoyed the gel."
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Offline Classanr

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2014, 12:29:47 PM »
Here is a photo of the gun kit itself.

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Offline Mad Dog Stafford

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2014, 01:05:52 PM »
 (T^   ;)
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Offline Kaboom

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2014, 04:34:39 PM »
Nice looking kit, Class. Wish I could justify getting one myself. However, seems I have a much too large of an appetite for firearms. I have my eye on a 45 Colt single action AND a 22 single action. But I don't have the funds for either. See what a mess I'm in? Oh well, such is life. Enjoy your new toy my friend.
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Offline YosemiteSam

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2014, 09:17:46 AM »
Awesome post classanr!!!  I'm curious what the lr version does fps wise... I've been pulling the Winchester .22 Super x and using its powder to throw my NAA pills

Offline Classanr

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2014, 02:10:53 PM »
Awesome post classanr!!!  I'm curious what the lr version does fps wise... I've been pulling the Winchester .22 Super x and using its powder to throw my NAA pills

Thanks YS!

Presuming you mean "what velocity can I expect from a 22LR in a NAA smokeless revolver" the answer is "a range from 900->1200 depending on barrel length, gr weight of bullet, and ammo brand purchased".

Essentially, NAA's C&B 22Mag with 4F BP loaded correctly under a NAA 30gr bullet will approximate a slower 40gr 22LR.  Nothing wrong with that, because if you reload those 22s with BP and fire them in a 22LR chamber, you would get about 600fps.

The NAA C&B 22LR BP uses 1/3rd the powder of NAA's 22MAG C&B.  However, properly loaded BP in these shorter chambers still produce up to 600fps, which is the "stopping power" of a 22short.  On the other hand (as you have experienced) when you load smokeless, your NAA 22LR C&B shoots like a 22LR out that short barrel.  Feels awesome {?|

Judicious choice of powder (I am expecting to determine exactly what that would be, other than "one tiny dipper of BullsEye") should put your C&B onto par with the equivalent barrel length 22LR smokeless frame (in other words, up into the range of 900->1200 fps).

Testing will reveal all.
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Offline YosemiteSam

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2014, 08:05:45 AM »
Awesome post classanr!!!  I'm curious what the lr version does fps wise... I've been pulling the Winchester .22 Super x and using its powder to throw my NAA pills

Thanks YS!

Presuming you mean "what velocity can I expect from a 22LR in a NAA smokeless revolver" the answer is "a range from 900->1200 depending on barrel length, gr weight of bullet, and ammo brand purchased".

Essentially, NAA's C&B 22Mag with 4F BP loaded correctly under a NAA 30gr bullet will approximate a slower 40gr 22LR.  Nothing wrong with that, because if you reload those 22s with BP and fire them in a 22LR chamber, you would get about 600fps.

The NAA C&B 22LR BP uses 1/3rd the powder of NAA's 22MAG C&B.  However, properly loaded BP in these shorter chambers still produce up to 600fps, which is the "stopping power" of a 22short.  On the other hand (as you have experienced) when you load smokeless, your NAA 22LR C&B shoots like a 22LR out that short barrel.  Feels awesome {?|

Judicious choice of powder (I am expecting to determine exactly what that would be, other than "one tiny dipper of BullsEye") should put your C&B onto par with the equivalent barrel length 22LR smokeless frame (in other words, up into the range of 900->1200 fps).

Testing will reveal all.

So I "thought" that smokeless was only safe in th lr mini companion?   I need to get some bullseye off my buddy

Offline mazo kid

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2014, 11:46:22 AM »
Does NAA stock 2 different bullets? The ones I got don't have the rebated, concave base.

Offline Classanr

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2014, 01:16:34 PM »
Does NAA stock 2 different bullets? The ones I got don't have the rebated, concave base.

NAA *stocks* only one form of bullet.  Looks like the one in my cutaway.


http://northamericanarms.com/accessories/cb-accessories/cb-parts/cbb50.html

This is not a true rebated base, but a straight wall bullet with a single thick driving band.

There is a "traditional" style flat base bullet that seems to be available here:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/51222

that looks like this (has a narrow grease groove):


If I were trying to pack in as much 777 as possible, and compress the heck out of the powder, I'd use the CTD bullets loaded "nose up".  If all I had were CTD bullets, and I wished to optimize the powder chamber as close to factory recommendations, I'd use only 0.3cc BP and load the bullet "upside down", nose just pressing barely into the powder chamber.

If you are really really really nice to the lady who answers the NAA phone, you might talk her into selling 2500 bullets (10 packs of 250) delivered for $85.  I have no idea what the price might be by May, 2014.
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Offline mazo kid

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Re: NAA 22mag C&B cylinder cutaway view
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2014, 02:04:43 PM »
Thanks for that info (again!) I guess I lied to you....as I mentioned, I bought my Companion Magnum used and it came with a few bullets. I then ordered another cylinder and 100 more bullets. The few bullets that came with the gun are not lubed and flat base. Checking the bullets that I ordered, they are the concave base bullets and appear to have some sort of lube on them. NAA must have changed their design or bullet maker.