1858banner

Author Topic: .451 vs .454  (Read 267 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 1winnen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
.451 vs .454
« on: October 22, 2020, 12:53:28 PM »
Hi all and yes MORE questions. Just got my new .44 Traditions (Pietta) 1858 New Army. Watched a video, yes I watch a lot of them hopefully for good advies BUT I do rely on experts. In the video the guy was testing his .44 Pietta 1858 for accuracy with both the .451 and .454 ball. He found that even though the .454 is the suggested size ball, even in my Traditions manual, the .451 was more accurate. Can any owners of the Tradition 1858 confirm that or is it simply a matter of different revolves liking different loads. I mentioned Pietta because that's who I was told made the 1858 for Traditions. 

Offline Hawg

  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Forum Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10206
  • You done went and done it now!
Re: .451 vs .454
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2020, 01:16:12 PM »
I find it hard to believe a .451 would be more accurate than a .454 when the .454 shaves a bigger flat spot and gives a sminch more grip to the rifling. The main thing about .451's is they may tend to walk in the chamber.
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and tasteth good with ketchup.

Offline Retreever

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 181
  • Life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog!
Re: .451 vs .454
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2020, 01:17:07 PM »
Speaking from my own experience , I've owned Pietta's and Uberti's 1858 I found the Pietta's worked best with the .451 while the Uberti's like the .454.

Retreever

Management and Ops consulting pro providing tactical sales and business solutions. Gundog Trainer, Power Lifter Wannabe

Offline Hellgate

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 87
Re: .451 vs .454
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2020, 02:53:52 PM »
It depends on how accurate you want to be and for what purpose. I have used the .457 balls in my Ubertis and there was little difference in ramming force. They just shaved a little bigger ring. If you are plinking or shooting Cowboy Action, any size that will not cause "ball creep" (forward migration of the ball in the unfired chambers during recoil) is good to go. If you are hunting or in a true target accuracy match then the most accurate ball is a necessity. To keep it simple I use .454 in everything I own in 44 cal.
I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball for having over 15 of them. That's a compliment.
SASS #3302 Life, Regulator,  NRA Life
Wolverton Mtn Peacekeepers
Former Orygun Cowboy Ranger
Posse From Hell (Honorary)
RUCAS#58
DGB#29

Offline Grumpy gumpy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: .451 vs .454
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2020, 03:31:48 PM »
From my perspective it depends on the bore size and the chamber size, I have three “44’s” and each takes a different size ball, 451,453and 458, I slug the bore and then measure the chambers( each one as they can be different) and then aim for 1 to 2 thou over the "shaved" size, which is hopefully what the groove ends up at. Seems to work for me, although my Rogers and spencer has three different size chambers, needs reaming, and doesn’t shoot well.
Gumpy

Offline Hellgate

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 87
Re: .451 vs .454
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2020, 05:43:57 PM »
Hey Grumpy, been there, done that.  I "reamed" my chambers on a couple of ASM "Navy" 44s and botched them up due to a poorly designed drill press vise. Had to order extra cylinders to make the guns workable and start over again.
Getting a .450 reamer and a decent vise you could ream the R&S chambers and it would shoot quite well.
A lot of the chambers are drilled to .448 and the bore at .450 so a .450 reamer would do the trick especially since dead soft lead tends to upset (obturate) to fit the bore.
I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball for having over 15 of them. That's a compliment.
SASS #3302 Life, Regulator,  NRA Life
Wolverton Mtn Peacekeepers
Former Orygun Cowboy Ranger
Posse From Hell (Honorary)
RUCAS#58
DGB#29

Offline 1winnen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
Re: .451 vs .454
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2020, 07:04:59 PM »
Hellgate asked how accurate did I want my 1858. Lets just say accurate enough to hit a man size paper target in the X 9 and 8 areas at 7-10 yards. I think I'll stick with the .454 since both the Pietta and Traditions manuals recommend the size ball.

Offline Grumpy gumpy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: .451 vs .454
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2020, 09:28:57 PM »
Hey Grumpy, been there, done that.  I "reamed" my chambers on a couple of ASM "Navy" 44s and botched them up due to a poorly designed drill press vise. Had to order extra cylinders to make the guns workable and start over again.
Getting a .450 reamer and a decent vise you could ream the R&S chambers and it would shoot quite well.
A lot of the chambers are drilled to .448 and the bore at .450 so a .450 reamer would do the trick especially since dead soft lead tends to upset (obturate) to fit the bore.
I have a mill..... :)
And access to a tool and cutter grinder to make reamers/ end mill cutters if need be. It’s on my "to do" list, along with several dozen other projects
Gumpy

Offline Captainkirk

  • Forum Caesar, Administrator Extraordinaire, Part-Time Gunslinger, Savior of used and abused, and neglected Remmies
  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Forum Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 8055
  • Black Powder Nut & Remmy fanatic
Re: .451 vs .454
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2020, 09:55:23 PM »
I use .454 in my Piettas and .457 in my San Paolos. I haven't fired to the Santa Barbara yet so jury is still out. I've found .451s don't shave a lead ring and I've actually had them move forward on recoil in the cylinder requiring re-seating with the loading lever. Use the largest RB you can ram down the cylinder without over-stressing.
"You gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

Offline bladesmith

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
Re: .451 vs .454
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2020, 02:36:55 PM »
When I shot at the nationals back in the 70s, all I used were 451s in all my NMAs.  Back then those 451s were good for high 90s out of a 100, offhand, at 25 yds. We never measured cyl or bores, just shot 451s and when Ruger came out with their OMA, 458s were used. Today wih the new NMAs I've bought I just use the 451s or 454s left over from 40 years ago.