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Author Topic: FS keeping it  (Read 1255 times)

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Offline Hewy

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2020, 11:40:50 AM »
THE FRAME HAS BEEN MODIFIED this makes it a firearm in the eyes of government , therefore
falls into a requirement to be transferred through a licensed FFL.
According to the ATF, when you modify a frame to permanently use fixed ammunition, it becomes a firearm. Remove the cylinder and replace it with the original and it is no longer capable of accepting fixed ammunition. If this were not the case uberti, Pietta and others couldn’t sell the revolvers as non firearms because with the addition of a Kirst conversion they become capable of accepting fixed ammunition. Your revolver is not permanently modified to accept fixed ammunition. This from our local ATF office.
Thanks of your input. Did you get the info direct from an ATF web site or a call to an agent ?
Hewy
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Offline mazo kid

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2020, 11:49:53 AM »
Biggfoot, you are correct in that a person legally able to own a firearm can build one for their own use. I wasn't aware that the resulting firearm could be sold in the normal upgrading of a collection. That is good to know.

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2020, 01:14:13 PM »


   As general commentary , Ctg Conversions of cap & ball revolvers are fine things , if you want a Converted Revolver on purpose . They're fun and our whole hobby frequently involves a healthy dose of historical interest .

    But if your primary goal is a ctg firing single action revolver , it is less $$ to start out with a Blackhawk or SAA clone , than to convert a cap & ball .

True, it would be cheaper to buy an 1875 Remington than convert an 1858 model to cartridges. Still the advantage to doing the conversion is no registration.  I have a clean record but I still don't want the government knowing what I have. I imagine a lot of other people feel that way.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 02:58:56 AM by Yolla Bolly Brad »
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Offline Grumpy gumpy

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2020, 02:41:02 PM »


   As general commentary , Ctg Conversions of cap & ball revolvers are fine things , if you want a Converted Revolver on purpose . They're fun and our whole hobby frequently involves a healthy dose of historical interest .

    But if your primary goal is a ctg firing single action revolver , it is less $$ to start out with a Blackhawk or SAA clone , than to convert a cap & ball .

True, it would be cheaper to but an 1875 Remington than convert an 1858 model to cartridges. Still the advantage to doing the conversion is no registration.  I have a clean record but I still don't want the government knowing what I have. I imagine a lot of other people feel that way.
You should try living in the “people’s non-democratic republic of Australia “ ,you are treated as criminal because you legally own registered firearms and they all need to be registered as far as the police are concerned ( even if the law says otherwise on some), unless , of course, you’re a criminal or a member of an outlawed motorcycle gang, they seem to get away with anything
Gumpy

Offline AntiqueSledMan

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2020, 03:43:41 AM »
Hello Hewy,

Cutting a loading port for cartridges doesn't make it a cartridge gun, you need the Cylinder.

As long as the Cartridge Cylinder is not installed in the Revolver, you can't load fixed ammo in it.

My 1873 Pietta Black Powder has a loading port & a gate, but you can't stick a cartridge into it.

I've read & re-read the ATF document and can not find where it says cutting a loading port in the frame
makes it an regulated weapon.

AntiqueSledMan.

Offline G Dog

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2020, 04:53:30 PM »
Hello Hewy,

Cutting a loading port for cartridges doesn't make it a cartridge gun, you need the Cylinder.

As long as the Cartridge Cylinder is not installed in the Revolver, you can't load fixed ammo in it.


Yea. Sure. Whatever.

This thread should probably be locked down.  I can’t recall reading so much BS on a thread here, ever.  If you modify a gun to ‘accept fixed ammunition’ then that’s exactly what’s happened.  The US Attorney or local DA won’t care about the location of cylinder(s). 

Don’t get your legal advice from ATF agents or cops generally.  Your question will likely be over their heads and certainly outside of their education, training and work experience.  They don’t make charging decisions.  An overworked  lawyer with thick glasses in an office somewhere does that.  She may even be a woke Democrat who dislikes guns on principle.

If you make your own gun then you had better have applied for a serial number.  A sale is not required, simple possession of any un-serialized firearm is a potential bust. 

Hawg’s example of the likely results of shipping a Colt Python without the cylinder should be reconsidered by some of the ‘experts’ here.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 04:58:18 PM by G Dog »
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".  
                                        Ephesians 6:12  (KJV)

Offline Hawg

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2020, 08:40:46 PM »
As I said before, according to the BATFE the frame IS the weapon. If you modify the frame to accept cartridges it will always accept cartridges and becomes a modern weapon. The cylinder plays no part in this.
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and tasteth good with ketchup.

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2020, 01:40:36 AM »
  No doubt, when you dabble in a gray area concerning firearms, you open yourself up to possible persecution by some gun hating government zealot. Even if you win a legal case brought against you, there's still "punishment in the process", meaning it will cost you a lot of time and money.
  On the positive side, I haven't heard of any legal problems coming from people doing gated cartridge conversions on their cap guns. For instance, there was a guy who used to post here (I won't mention his name) who has a business doing cartridge conversions and he never mentioned any legal issues with modifying frames to accept gated kits. He's got a website advertising his services and ships out the modified frames via common carrier, so its not like he's staying under the radar on his activities. Kirst also offers the service of cutting the loading port in your frame.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline Hewy

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2020, 01:27:38 PM »
G Dog, I don't think shutting this down will help anything, this just brings out the lack of
knowledge clarity folks have from the government . We kinda guess, so talking about it
is proper.You note that I pulled the ad, due to this confusion.
I understand your frustration believe me friend,we are all under the 2A microscope. Hate to hear the
attacks.
Hewy
Hewy
Better to be gettin , than gettin got.

Offline Hawg

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2020, 05:39:48 PM »
I'm not saying I'm right or anybody else is wrong, just my take on it. I've seen this subject come up on several different forums and the consensus is always the same. I used to think it could't be a problem since the 1873 cap and balls have a loading gate but then they also have the offset firing pin. So even tho a .45 Colt cylinder will fit it still wont fire. Make up your own mind and proceed at your own risk. :-*
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and tasteth good with ketchup.

Offline Biggfoot44

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2020, 06:11:38 PM »
  But those " SAA looking C&B guns " were manufactured that way . Legally that is not the same as modifying an existing frame . Yup, still clear as mud .

   A parallel can be drawn regarding serial numbers . There are countless actual firearms that don't have s/n , and are entirely legal . The bulk of them are rifles and shotguns mfg before 1968 , and all firearms mfg before 1934 were not required to have a s/n .

  But even if a gun not originally required to have one, did actually have one, it is illegal to remove or alter it .

Offline Hawg

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2020, 08:16:25 PM »
  But those " SAA looking C&B guns " were manufactured that way .

They're not easily converted to cartridge.
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Offline necessaryevil

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2020, 03:45:17 AM »
  But those " SAA looking C&B guns " were manufactured that way .

They're not easily converted to cartridge.

It isn't "easy" to convert those C+B "Peacemakers", but it can be done.

A friend of mine was an engineer at British Aerospace. For his day job he used to make things like rotors for helicopters, pretty precise stuff. He made a .45 Colt cylinder from scratch for his in stainless steel. He modified the existing firing pin and it worked perfectly.

Offline Hawg

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2020, 08:12:08 AM »
The easiest way is to weld the firing pin hole up and drill it in the proper place and install a bushing. Add a Colt hammer and you're good to go. I read on one of the forums where somebody just wallowed out the hole in the frame but it was blowing primers out of the cases.
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Offline necessaryevil

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Re: FS keeping it
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2020, 12:48:07 PM »
The easiest way is to weld the firing pin hole up and drill it in the proper place and install a bushing. Add a Colt hammer and you're good to go. I read on one of the forums where somebody just wallowed out the hole in the frame but it was blowing primers out of the cases.

The tip of the firing pin in those cap and ball "Peacemakers" is shaped like a capital letter "D".

All he did was reduce the "D" on a lathe. It struck a perfect D shaped impression on the primers setting them all off perfectly.