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Author Topic: Best BP cleaning solution I’ve found in 30 yrs...  (Read 399 times)

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Offline prof marvel

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Re: Best BP cleaning solution I’ve found in 30 yrs...
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2019, 02:53:37 AM »
Greetings My Good Netizens -

I thought my ears were burning...  thanks for vote of confidence! (special thanks to G Dog for the link to "Prof Marvel's Epistle to the Unknowning"

I have recently recieved from Hedley Lamar of the late "Open Range" website a metric bunch of The Mad Monks' writings ( aka Bill Knight, the chemist friend in question)
I will try to post them up here in the near future.

regarding "pores in the steel". 
Oh my.
Whilst I do agree with the concept of warming and oiling the metal after cleaning,
As an amateur metalurgist, and having consulted real metalurgists, I can safely agree with SSB, Hawg, and G-Dog:

 There Ain't No Pores In Modern Steel.

This modern myth/old wives tale almost certainly harkens back to the age of Wrought Iron Barrels, which were worked (wrought)
to the point that the fibrous slag inclusions elongated and became fused with the iron until it actually exhibited a longtitudinal "grain" much like wood.



Wrought iron is the traditional material of the blacksmith. Due to the siliceous slags combined with its fibrous structure, it resists corrosion far better
than modern steels or pure irons, and seems to "absorb" oils to some degreee. Thus, lilke cast iron skillets, wrought iron barrels can be seasoned,
but steel barrels cannot. BTW The traditional black "blacksmiths finish" is achieved by heating the finished pice to "black hot" and dipping it in
a mixture of beeswax and linseed oil. This coating burns onto the iron and seals it off; It is extremely durable on wrought iron, only somewhat on steel.

hope this helps
prof marvel
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Offline PaleHawkDown

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Re: Best BP cleaning solution I’ve found in 30 yrs...
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2019, 04:49:36 PM »
HI Lee, sorry, but this statement in your link is pure BS:

"Basically, what you do is to heat the barrel to open the pores in the steel, and then you fill those pores up with lubricant,"

Steel doesn't have pores. It may have inclusions and dislocations, but no pores.

Regards,
Richard



Literally hundreds of manufacturers of black powder barrels through the years suggest seasoning the steel, numerous companies that sell these things recommend it (https://www.cabelas.com/product/Seasoning-Your-New-Rifle/533158.uts), and makers of steel cookware recommend seasoning the steel to fill the pores.

Whether steel is porous or not depends entirely on the application of friction. This friction can occur during the manufacturing process, even. The other thing seasoning does is to help smooth over any imperfections in the barrel due to the rifling process.

To put it in industrial terms, you are actually bonding a lubricating layer to the metal to create a more uniform surface, while smoothing out imperfections through a process of shooting, abrading and oiling.

Please note this photo of steel under a microscope that has been exposed to friction without a lubricating layer. 




Offline PaleHawkDown

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Re: Best BP cleaning solution I’ve found in 30 yrs...
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2019, 04:59:29 PM »
I thought about it a minute, and I think two sides might actually be arguing two different things.

When I say porous, I am not talking about "porous" metal - as in there being pores throughout the steel itself. What I am talking about is surface imperfections that manifest in a pore-like surface.

Think about it this way; have you ever accidentally over-polished a gun barrel before trying to blue it?

If the surface is too perfect it will not properly take a blue.

If the surface is too inconsistant it will be multicolored. You have to achieve a uniform, but not too-perfect surface.

Seasoning is doing the same thing on the inside of the gun, but actually trying to achieve that polish so that the internal surfaces have lower friction and a more uniform dynamic.

Does that make sense?

Offline prof marvel

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Re: Best BP cleaning solution I’ve found in 30 yrs...
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2019, 08:39:34 PM »
I thought about it a minute, and I think two sides might actually be arguing two different things.

When I say porous, I am not talking about "porous" metal - as in there being pores throughout the steel itself. What I am talking about is surface imperfections that manifest in a pore-like surface.

Think about it this way; have you ever accidentally over-polished a gun barrel before trying to blue it?

If the surface is too perfect it will not properly take a blue.

If the surface is too inconsistant it will be multicolored. You have to achieve a uniform, but not too-perfect surface.

Seasoning is doing the same thing on the inside of the gun, but actually trying to achieve that polish so that the internal surfaces have lower friction and a more uniform dynamic.

Does that make sense?

Why yes, “surface imperfections” makes perfect sense. As does overpolishing. One does want some “tooth” to the metal to allow “stuff” (whether bluing, browning, or any other surface coating) to stick.
But I am not saying steel has teeth lol ...

Thanks for the clarification.
Prof Marvel
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Offline Skillet

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Re: Best BP cleaning solution I’ve found in 30 yrs...
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2019, 02:12:55 AM »
I’d imagine that hot gunmetal bonds better with oil/grease/lard etc, much like an iron skillet, that when well-used and ‘cured’, will slide a fried egg.

That same hot skillet, unoiled would make a sticky mess of ur breakfast.

Normally a new skillet is cured with lard etc. in the oven. Treating ur bore in a similar fashion would most certainly reduce friction/leading.

Not going to speculate on the presence or absence of pores.

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Best BP cleaning solution I’ve found in 30 yrs...
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2019, 08:26:24 AM »
Hi Lee, I agree with you if "seasoning" is the production of a protective film on the steel surface. Seasoning of iron cookware is a polymerized film protecting the iron surface. Soap is never used to clean seasoned cookware. Soap or detergent will remove the seasoning removing that protective film. In time a well seasoned iron cookware builds a beautiful black protective surface.

Oil on a gun bore is to provide a protective water vapor impervious film to prevent rusting. While not polymerized it does provide protection. Some specialized nano nonsense gun oils claim to fill the pores in the bore, but that is a misnomer IMO.

I think we are both now on the same page.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline PaleHawkDown

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Re: Best BP cleaning solution I’ve found in 30 yrs...
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2019, 01:18:34 PM »
Hi Lee, I agree with you if "seasoning" is the production of a protective film on the steel surface. Seasoning of iron cookware is a polymerized film protecting the iron surface. Soap is never used to clean seasoned cookware. Soap or detergent will remove the seasoning removing that protective film. In time a well seasoned iron cookware builds a beautiful black protective surface.

Oil on a gun bore is to provide a protective water vapor impervious film to prevent rusting. While not polymerized it does provide protection. Some specialized nano nonsense gun oils claim to fill the pores in the bore, but that is a misnomer IMO.

I think we are both now on the same page.

Regards,
Richard

Some sales lady came in a few years ago touting one of those fancy CLPs that supposedly form a permanent bond to metal.
Bond it certainly did.
She claimed that it would also kill rust in the process. Like an idiot, when she asked me if I had anything with rust on it I pulled out my trusty Krag. The gun had one weird little dot of rust that bothered me every time I looked at it, but which was to small to "fix" without it being obvious.
Sure enough, the stuff she was selling killed the rust, but it also left a spot on the bluing so shiny, bright, and anachronistic (like mid 1970s custom shop Remington 700s) that it is way worse than the tiny rust spot.
NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING, I have tried to use to remove that shiny spot has worked, but it has faded slightly with age.

I can't think of a military application where a soldier would want his gun mirror-shiny, regardless of any other benefits to the product.




Offline Hawg

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Re: Best BP cleaning solution I’ve found in 30 yrs...
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2019, 04:41:20 PM »
Some sales lady came in a few years ago touting one of those fancy CLPs that supposedly form a permanent bond to metal.
Bond it certainly did.

Do you remember what it was? It might have a useful application where shiny wouldn't be a problem.
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Offline PaleHawkDown

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Re: Best BP cleaning solution I’ve found in 30 yrs...
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2019, 08:16:17 AM »
No I don't. It had CLP on the label but that narrows it down to a few hundred products these days. The bottle was a plain white bottle with a sticker label that had red, yellow and green stripes on it.

That is all I remember.