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Author Topic: Sealing the cylinders with different lubes and NOT crushing the bullets  (Read 404 times)

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Offline oldracer

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Well I have taken both my pair of matched 7 inch barrel 1958's and the long barreled pair of 1958's to the range 4 times now to get familiar with them. I has been 10 years since I had a Colt Walker and while shooting only both patched round ball and 45 caliber slug guns the six shooters are a tad more complicated! In the first two trips I used Bore Butter and could actually feel the powder residue, lube and who know what hit my face, even at arms length. I was using the Johnston & Dow and Kaido bullets and .454 round balls and the results were about the same for all three at 25 yards. There was a nice grease ring at the muzzle and after 6 shots the barrel would wipe pretty clean with a Ballistol patch and then a dry patch.


For the next two trips I sealed the cylinder openings with a lube made by a local gunsmith named Doug Knoell which is similar to SPG in that it is easily workable into the holes and I noted when I shot......no sludge into the face! Accuracy was about the same as with Bore Butter and there was a different shaped grease ring at the muzzle, similar to my rifles. I wiped the bore with the same type of patches and they came out cleaner as far as I could see. So far I think I'll use the solid lube as I cut it into 1 inch square strips and it is easy to rub off a bit for each bullet/ball.

I found I had a couple end mills from when I bought my 3 in 1 machine that closely matched the nose of the J&D bullet and also the Kaido bullets so I made an external press such as the commercial ones and I made apress with the ram that fits the bullet nose very well. I found out Remington supplied the paper cartridge J&D bullets if you bought their pistols but I doubt they'll give or even sell me any!!!

John

Offline Pustic

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When I load up my 1858's or my Colts, I never put lube over the balls, it's not needed. I put in the powder, a lubed wander wad, and then the ball. When you seat the ball, a round shaving of lead will come off the ball, and it is air tight.
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Offline Omnivore

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Hmm, yeah; several issues there.  The Bore Butter, depending on temperature, can be extremely soft, and more so as the cylinder heats up.  Cylinder gap blast will usually blast out most of the bore butter in the ajdacent chamber(s), and so a harder black powder lube like SPG or GF1 over the ball will generally leave more lube upon firing subsequent chambers.

Some cap blast, with tiny fragments, will always be there to hit you in the face.  This is most obvious when firing the Remington '58 revolving percussion carbine, which puts the back of the cylinder much closer to the face when firing.

Lube under the ball will be more effective than lube over the ball, because there it will be more available to mix with the powder fouling.  Again, temperature will affect this greatly.  Firing in cold weather, using lube cookies between powder and ball, I can often find the lube cookies largely intact, lying on the gound, meaning that very little of the lube was distributed in the bore.  Hunting in freezing weather, ice cold gun before firing, I recovered one bullet from the far side leg joint of a deer.  The bullet had passed completely through the chest cavity, flattening out on the leg joint, breaking the leg, and still had most of the lube in the bullet's grease groove.

Either way you choose to lube the load, in the weather you're shooting in, so long as the bore cleans up very easily, without any scrubbing, then I'd say you're doing it right.  That's really the ultimate test.  My specific "ultimate test" is that the bore wipes largely clean (no zones of hard fouling left over anywhere in the bore) with one pass of a tight-fitting, dry patch on a jag.

I like to float a measured amount of lube (GF1 or SPG) over water in a pre-determined size baking pan in the oven (just weigh the lube and toss it in, then turn on the heat and wait), and let it completely cool in the oven without disturbing it.  That gives you a perfectly even thichness sheet of lube.  The measurment is X ounces or grams of lube per unit of area inside the pan.  Place that lube sheet on aluminum foil on a flat countertop and use a punch to cut out "lube pills", like using a cookie-cutter.  These pills can then be used over the ball or under it, or made into "lube cookies" by placing a thin card on each side of the pill (cookies always go under the bullet).

I almost always use the lube cookies in paper cartridges, so the carts can be stored without the lube contaminating the powder (so long as you don't leave the carts in a hot car in the sun in summertime).  That way the entire load is there inside the cartridge, and, if you used the right size punch to make your cards and pills, and you use either a ball or the properly tapered or heeled bullet which fits the gun, it speeds up and simplifies the loading process tremendously.  It's not strictly "period correct" but it sure works like a charm.

If you're only firing a few shots, as in hunting, there's no need for lube at all.  I don't know of any period cartridge for these guns which had any lube in it, and as far as I know they all used "elongated bullets" of some kind, rather than round ball.
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Offline oldracer

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Thanks for the info guys. I don't do any hunting and even shooting a 30 or 40 round pistol match tires me out since my cancer radiation treatments last DEC and JAN. I am getting better and use two hands for the shooting instead of one like most of the shooters do (world match stuff) but these pistols are a new area for me. I have assembled half a dozen muzzle loaders including several from scratch so I love a new challenge!
John

Offline mazo kid

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I have been using SPG, other special BP lube, or my own beeswax/bear grease. I still have most of a tube of Bore Butter-like lube that is over 25 years old!

Offline mike116

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You are on the right track oldracer.     Keep trying different combinations and different lube formulas until you find the combination of powder, Bullet, and Lube that works best for you.    Not everything works for every shooter,  we all have different preferences.   You have to try different things in order to decide what you like.   Keep after it,  trying out different methods is the fun part.

Offline Captainkirk

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Lubed wads...over the powder and under the bullet...no overball lube required. No more 'greased eel' and much easier to wipe down/clean up.
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Offline Hawg

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Lubed wads...over the powder and under the bullet...no overball lube required. No more 'greased eel' and much easier to wipe down/clean up.
You'll never look back.

What he said.
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Offline Dresden

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I make 12mm card wads from wine case separators, I scrape my lube on the was and place it over the ball
The result is good accuracy, and sealing for months. Kinda shoots down the lube under bullet theory
However do as you wish ain't my gun

Offline oldracer

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Re: Sealing the cylinders with different lubes and NOT crushing the bullets
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2019, 11:39:49 AM »
I have a post here somewhere of all the things I have tried with my Remington 1858 revolvers. I finally settled on the following: 28 grains of FFG Goex (what I have) a slight sprinkling of Cream of Wheat on the powder, just enough to cushion the ass-end of the round ball and the seat the ball with an external seater. I use some of Doug Knoells BPCR solid lube on top of the ball and it lubes the barrel very well since I cannot wipe between shots like my rifles. There is no card wad or anything else in the cylinder.

I did cut 12 degree chamfers in the forcing cones of all 4 pistols and turned the front of all but one cylinder so there is .008 clearance between the cylinder and forcing cone. That is taken up when the hammer falls as I had to do a bit of relief work on two of the pistols so the hammer falls to impact the cap and also force the cylinder forward. The cylinder turns easily for all 6 shots now. I think the lube gets blown out the side a little bit as the guy shooting next to me says it feels like I am shooting a flintlock!

After all the stuff I tried I finally went with what Doug recommended in the first place, although he did say to try multiple things...…
John