1858 remington forum

Author Topic: Paper cartridge taper  (Read 493 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dresden

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Paper cartridge taper
« on: May 23, 2019, 08:37:38 AM »
I started making paper cartridges recently using the Lee conical and following the method described on utube
"Making paper cartridges my way"  I did not like the tails he had on them so I modified the method to glue sticking the ball in and trimming the paper at the lube groove. They look quite close to original.
I have recently purchased a Johnston-Dow mold and a Manley former and will post results latter.

I have original paper fuses made in 1863 at Frankford arsenal so I reverse engineered the process and made some, they fit the original fuse plugs I have and paper cartridges I made do as well so the taper is close.
Being a machinist I recognized this to be a Nr. 1 Morse taper.  I found a MT 1 reamer set on Amazon for $17
I will make a multiple loading block for the J-Dow bullet. Results will follow.

Offline Omnivore

  • Ultimate Forum Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 2729
Re: Paper cartridge taper
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2019, 02:20:06 PM »
Hmm, well you had me up until you mentioned something about "fuses".  Also I'm not sure what you're doing with the tapered reamer.  I think you'll find that, for a loading block, a straight hole will suffice as well as anything.  That is, if I understand the use of the term "loading block" (as metal cartridge reloaders have used the term for generations) to be a simple block of wood with multiple holes in it to support the paper cases while charging them with powder and inserting bullets.

The taper of the actual cartridge is somewhat important.  It determines both the powder capacity under the bullet, and the length of the cartridge under the bullet.  Thus if the taper is wrong the cartridge may hold the powder charge you want but still be too long to seat the bullet heel without bottoming out in the chamber first.  Stuff like that.  A cylindrical cartridge can work, sort of, but will not be as easy nor as quick to load.

I find the ideal cartridge case taper for a 44 Army, 30 grain powder charge, to be 3.4 to 3.5 degrees off center axis.

As for any mention of "fuses" I'm totally in the dark regarding that.  I always assumed we all used percussion caps   (^h

The J&D bullet is a good design, but depending on the gun that pointy bullet nose may end up as a round nose, very similar to the Lee Bullet once it's been rammed into the chamber.  Pietta 44s all come with a round ball nose on the loading ram, as do Uberti Remingtons.  Uberti Colts have the more pointy, or ogive, shaped rammer nose similar to the J&D.

I use the rolling mandrel method, so as a machinist, you make the mandrel to the 3.4 degree taper, plain bare wood, and you're all set.  With that angle, adjust the small end (the length) until the desired powder capacity is reached - that's going to end up around 0.30" at the small end, so I start a tad smaller (meaning longer at the small end) and test the cases made from it until I get the desired fit of powder and bullet.  The mandrel taper should be at least as long as the paper case you're styarting with, so for the tailed carts it ends up well over 1/2 inch at the large end.  The loading block can be anything with a bunch of straight holes in it, or a plastic cartridge storage box like you get for metal cartridges in 45 or 44 caliber - whatever.

The paper tails may not look original, but they serve the purpose of allowing you to pluck cartridges, one at a time, from a cartridge box in the field (gotta have something to carry them in).  The original cartridge six packs had you dumping them all out at once.  Kinda hard to deal with that in the field unless you sit down, and the ground is dry, or you have a buddy to hold the cartridges for you as you load, or have a loading table.  The tails also allow you to close up the cartridge without glueing the bullet.

So yes; you're making a cart that's close to the original, if that's the goal.

The method I've seen of using an external taper as a forming block is rather silly to me.  It takes longer, it requires that presicion fit between mandrel and block, and leaves the end cap on the outside of the case.  It works of course, but is less elegant, IMO.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Hawg

  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Forum Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 9800
  • You done went and done it now!
Re: Paper cartridge taper
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2019, 08:02:51 PM »
and leaves the end cap on the outside of the case.  It works of course, but is less elegant, IMO.

Caps on the outside are period correct.





Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and tasteth good with ketchup.

Offline Dresden

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: Paper cartridge taper
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2019, 07:58:03 PM »
In my collection of artillery stuff the shell fuses were tapered and most were made by rolling  paper cut to fit a tapered hole in a wood plug that closed the shell, I have original fuses and plugs. I thought the Manley former looked familiar then tried  fuse in it and it fit perfectly as did my Morse taper #1 reamer.
The tapered cartridge breaks open when loaded because of the length,
I started using end wraps on a tapered former and they work well, I tried the coffee filter paper and it was OK but thick at .005 then I found the painting  paper rolls about 8" long with thin .002 paper.

I used to have an explosives lisc to build fireworks so my interest in fuses and tapered fuses need to be in tapered holes when loaded..
It just struck me as an odd thing the tapers matched.

Offline Hawg

  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Forum Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 9800
  • You done went and done it now!
Re: Paper cartridge taper
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2019, 08:24:06 PM »
You must have different artillery fuses than I had. Mine were big ol cardboard things compared to a revolver cartridge.



Tapered end.

Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and tasteth good with ketchup.

Offline SourMashII

  • Forum Legend
  • ******
  • Posts: 1320
  • Smokin'......
Re: Paper cartridge taper
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2019, 12:09:23 PM »
Has anyone ever lubed the cylinder, and then say filled it with Hot Glue, to pull a "mould"...
Been debating this for a while
Soaking this up like a Parched sponge.

Offline Dresden

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: Paper cartridge taper
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2019, 06:06:27 AM »
Needing a tapered hole is a requirement of the Manley former as the paper case has the bottom closed with a paper disk , see utube videos making cartridge cases on a Manley former.

I actually make cases for the range with  end wraps similar to the way you do and I load off the gun as I have extra cylinders.

I will post the pics of the fuses for you

Offline Dresden

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: Paper cartridge taper
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2019, 07:24:19 AM »
The pictures show the Manley former with an original 1863 fuse inserted, the male former, and a cartridge made with the set using the Johnston Dow bullet,  the others show original fuse plugs with an original fuse and my copies inserted it's interesting the tapers match.

Offline Dresden

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: Paper cartridge taper
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2019, 07:27:55 AM »
Manley's former and original fuse

Offline Dresden

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: Paper cartridge taper
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2019, 07:31:00 AM »
Repro fuse cases and  original shell plugs