The 1858 Remington Forum

General Category => Buy Sell or Trade => Topic started by: Hewy on January 24, 2020, 11:38:47 AM

Title: FS keeping it
Post by: Hewy on January 24, 2020, 11:38:47 AM
Modified to accept a Kirst gated .45 Colt five shot cylinder in 2017 from a new Pietta 5 1/2" 44 precusion revolver I purchased .
No longer "For Sale"
Title: Re: FS 1858 Remington conversion
Post by: Exbadguy on January 24, 2020, 07:58:13 PM
question,,couldn't you just sell/ship it with the kirst cylinder removed
to avoid FFL hassle?
Title: Re: FS 1858 Remington conversion
Post by: Hewy on January 24, 2020, 08:36:57 PM
THE FRAME HAS BEEN MODIFIED this makes it a firearm in the eyes of government , therefore
falls into a requirement to be transferred through a licensed FFL.
Title: Re: FS 1858 Remington conversion
Post by: Exbadguy on January 25, 2020, 04:24:15 PM
I understand,,thankyou
Title: Re: FS 1858 Remington conversion
Post by: Hewy on January 26, 2020, 08:35:05 AM
 ??? ??? Humm should I  keep this gun? Appears to be no interest.
Here is what it costs to do the conversion : The gun new $279, the Kirst Conversion cylinder $320.
No cost to modify frame, I did it my self , with excellent directions so  maybe a $1.00 for the sanding drums.......$600 Total
Title: Re: FS 1858 Remington conversion
Post by: Bad Karma on February 11, 2020, 06:18:39 PM
THE FRAME HAS BEEN MODIFIED this makes it a firearm in the eyes of government , therefore
falls into a requirement to be transferred through a licensed FFL.
According to the ATF, when you modify a frame to permanently use fixed ammunition, it becomes a firearm. Remove the cylinder and replace it with the original and it is no longer capable of accepting fixed ammunition. If this were not the case uberti, Pietta and others couldn’t sell the revolvers as non firearms because with the addition of a Kirst conversion they become capable of accepting fixed ammunition. Your revolver is not permanently modified to accept fixed ammunition. This from our local ATF office.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Hawg on February 11, 2020, 08:16:34 PM
When you cut it for a loading gate it becomes  permanently modified to accept fixed ammunition. It would basically be the same thing as removing the cylinder from a Colt Python and trying to ship it without going through an FFL.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: ssb73q on February 12, 2020, 10:45:59 AM
Hi, see:

https://www.oldsouthfirearms.com/HowellConversions-GATED1858RemingtonPietta.45LC.aspx

I have often thought that if one no longer owned the conversion cylinder or had one available, but had a C&B gun modified to provide a loading port, one could argue that the opening is simply an enhanced cap loading recess.

However, I wouldn't want to chance that argument winning.

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Yolla Bolly Brad on February 12, 2020, 12:08:08 PM
  As long as the loading port was finished to match the rest of the frame, and the through bored cylinder and recoil shield wasn't in sight, I'd bet nobody would notice the modification. The law these days is mostly focused on "assault" rifles.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: mazo kid on February 14, 2020, 05:33:25 PM
There is one more aspect in this question. Since YOU made this "permanent" modification, you did in fact make a gun without the required license. I know, picky-picky, but I don't think that legally, you can even sell this gun. Someone please set me straight if I am wrong.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Yolla Bolly Brad on February 15, 2020, 01:24:55 AM
  I thought a citizen was allowed to build a modern gun for themselves without any registration as long as they didn't try to sell it. Wouldn't this also apply to modifying a percussion revolver, as long as you didn't transfer it to somebody else?
  I believe just lately my wonderful state of California has changed that for semi-auto rifles because of all the people building AR15s out of 80% receivers.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Hawg on February 15, 2020, 02:12:12 AM
There is one more aspect in this question. Since YOU made this "permanent" modification, you did in fact make a gun without the required license. I know, picky-picky, but I don't think that legally, you can even sell this gun. Someone please set me straight if I am wrong.

That is my understanding as well.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Hewy on February 15, 2020, 12:36:01 PM
There is one more aspect in this question. Since YOU made this "permanent" modification, you did in fact make a gun without the required license. I know, picky-picky, but I don't think that legally, you can even sell this gun. Someone please set me straight if I am wrong.
Mazo and Hawg
I hear a lot of variations of understanding the definitions, that is the main reason I pulled the ad.
Even my FFL owner didn't clearly understand, he said he would ship it , however  the receiving FFL
might question the modification with the original black powder cylinder.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Biggfoot44 on February 17, 2020, 12:15:00 AM
  A peson , not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may make a firearm for their personal use , not falling under the the jurisdiction of the NFA , without any licencing or paperwork .  Leastways at the Federal level . Hysteria at the state level has some States considering legislation , but it's not widespread yet .

   The resulting firearm(s) can Not be built as a business , or with * intent to sell* without an FFL 007 . One built with intent for personal use , Can be sold or traded , in the normal course of upgrading one's collection . Yeah , slightly clearer than mud , but that's the Federal law .

     Such selling, trading, etc must otherwise conform with state and federal law governing the sale/ transfering of Firearms .

   Whether this instance , the modifications made constitute " perment modifications for firing cartridges " , I am not presently commenting .

     *******************

   As general commentary , Ctg Conversions of cap & ball revolvers are fine things , if you want a Converted Revolver on purpose . They're fun and our whole hobby frequently involves a healthy dose of historical interest .

    But if your primary goal is a ctg firing single action revolver , it is less $$ to start out with a Blackhawk or SAA clone , than to convert a cap & ball .
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Hawg on February 17, 2020, 08:57:22 AM
According to the BATFE the frame IS the gun. Therefore if the frame is modified to accept cartridges it is for all intents and purposes a modern firearm. I know people buy and sell conversions over the internet with no FFL all the time. They ship the cylinder separately. I'm not aware of anybody getting caught doing it but that doesn't mean they wont.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Hewy on February 17, 2020, 11:40:50 AM
THE FRAME HAS BEEN MODIFIED this makes it a firearm in the eyes of government , therefore
falls into a requirement to be transferred through a licensed FFL.
According to the ATF, when you modify a frame to permanently use fixed ammunition, it becomes a firearm. Remove the cylinder and replace it with the original and it is no longer capable of accepting fixed ammunition. If this were not the case uberti, Pietta and others couldn’t sell the revolvers as non firearms because with the addition of a Kirst conversion they become capable of accepting fixed ammunition. Your revolver is not permanently modified to accept fixed ammunition. This from our local ATF office.
Thanks of your input. Did you get the info direct from an ATF web site or a call to an agent ?
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: mazo kid on February 17, 2020, 11:49:53 AM
Biggfoot, you are correct in that a person legally able to own a firearm can build one for their own use. I wasn't aware that the resulting firearm could be sold in the normal upgrading of a collection. That is good to know.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Yolla Bolly Brad on February 17, 2020, 01:14:13 PM


   As general commentary , Ctg Conversions of cap & ball revolvers are fine things , if you want a Converted Revolver on purpose . They're fun and our whole hobby frequently involves a healthy dose of historical interest .

    But if your primary goal is a ctg firing single action revolver , it is less $$ to start out with a Blackhawk or SAA clone , than to convert a cap & ball .

True, it would be cheaper to buy an 1875 Remington than convert an 1858 model to cartridges. Still the advantage to doing the conversion is no registration.  I have a clean record but I still don't want the government knowing what I have. I imagine a lot of other people feel that way.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Grumpy gumpy on February 17, 2020, 02:41:02 PM


   As general commentary , Ctg Conversions of cap & ball revolvers are fine things , if you want a Converted Revolver on purpose . They're fun and our whole hobby frequently involves a healthy dose of historical interest .

    But if your primary goal is a ctg firing single action revolver , it is less $$ to start out with a Blackhawk or SAA clone , than to convert a cap & ball .

True, it would be cheaper to but an 1875 Remington than convert an 1858 model to cartridges. Still the advantage to doing the conversion is no registration.  I have a clean record but I still don't want the government knowing what I have. I imagine a lot of other people feel that way.
You should try living in the “people’s non-democratic republic of Australia “ ,you are treated as criminal because you legally own registered firearms and they all need to be registered as far as the police are concerned ( even if the law says otherwise on some), unless , of course, you’re a criminal or a member of an outlawed motorcycle gang, they seem to get away with anything
Gumpy
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: AntiqueSledMan on February 19, 2020, 03:43:41 AM
Hello Hewy,

Cutting a loading port for cartridges doesn't make it a cartridge gun, you need the Cylinder.

As long as the Cartridge Cylinder is not installed in the Revolver, you can't load fixed ammo in it.

My 1873 Pietta Black Powder has a loading port & a gate, but you can't stick a cartridge into it.

I've read & re-read the ATF document and can not find where it says cutting a loading port in the frame
makes it an regulated weapon.

AntiqueSledMan.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: G Dog on February 19, 2020, 04:53:30 PM
Hello Hewy,

Cutting a loading port for cartridges doesn't make it a cartridge gun, you need the Cylinder.

As long as the Cartridge Cylinder is not installed in the Revolver, you can't load fixed ammo in it.


Yea. Sure. Whatever.

This thread should probably be locked down.  I can’t recall reading so much BS on a thread here, ever.  If you modify a gun to ‘accept fixed ammunition’ then that’s exactly what’s happened.  The US Attorney or local DA won’t care about the location of cylinder(s). 

Don’t get your legal advice from ATF agents or cops generally.  Your question will likely be over their heads and certainly outside of their education, training and work experience.  They don’t make charging decisions.  An overworked  lawyer with thick glasses in an office somewhere does that.  She may even be a woke Democrat who dislikes guns on principle.

If you make your own gun then you had better have applied for a serial number.  A sale is not required, simple possession of any un-serialized firearm is a potential bust. 

Hawg’s example of the likely results of shipping a Colt Python without the cylinder should be reconsidered by some of the ‘experts’ here.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Hawg on February 19, 2020, 08:40:46 PM
As I said before, according to the BATFE the frame IS the weapon. If you modify the frame to accept cartridges it will always accept cartridges and becomes a modern weapon. The cylinder plays no part in this.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Yolla Bolly Brad on February 20, 2020, 01:40:36 AM
  No doubt, when you dabble in a gray area concerning firearms, you open yourself up to possible persecution by some gun hating government zealot. Even if you win a legal case brought against you, there's still "punishment in the process", meaning it will cost you a lot of time and money.
  On the positive side, I haven't heard of any legal problems coming from people doing gated cartridge conversions on their cap guns. For instance, there was a guy who used to post here (I won't mention his name) who has a business doing cartridge conversions and he never mentioned any legal issues with modifying frames to accept gated kits. He's got a website advertising his services and ships out the modified frames via common carrier, so its not like he's staying under the radar on his activities. Kirst also offers the service of cutting the loading port in your frame.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Hewy on February 20, 2020, 01:27:38 PM
G Dog, I don't think shutting this down will help anything, this just brings out the lack of
knowledge clarity folks have from the government . We kinda guess, so talking about it
is proper.You note that I pulled the ad, due to this confusion.
I understand your frustration believe me friend,we are all under the 2A microscope. Hate to hear the
attacks.
Hewy
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Hawg on February 20, 2020, 05:39:48 PM
I'm not saying I'm right or anybody else is wrong, just my take on it. I've seen this subject come up on several different forums and the consensus is always the same. I used to think it could't be a problem since the 1873 cap and balls have a loading gate but then they also have the offset firing pin. So even tho a .45 Colt cylinder will fit it still wont fire. Make up your own mind and proceed at your own risk. :-*
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Biggfoot44 on April 12, 2020, 06:11:38 PM
  But those " SAA looking C&B guns " were manufactured that way . Legally that is not the same as modifying an existing frame . Yup, still clear as mud .

   A parallel can be drawn regarding serial numbers . There are countless actual firearms that don't have s/n , and are entirely legal . The bulk of them are rifles and shotguns mfg before 1968 , and all firearms mfg before 1934 were not required to have a s/n .

  But even if a gun not originally required to have one, did actually have one, it is illegal to remove or alter it .
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Hawg on April 12, 2020, 08:16:25 PM
  But those " SAA looking C&B guns " were manufactured that way .

They're not easily converted to cartridge.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: necessaryevil on April 13, 2020, 03:45:17 AM
  But those " SAA looking C&B guns " were manufactured that way .

They're not easily converted to cartridge.

It isn't "easy" to convert those C+B "Peacemakers", but it can be done.

A friend of mine was an engineer at British Aerospace. For his day job he used to make things like rotors for helicopters, pretty precise stuff. He made a .45 Colt cylinder from scratch for his in stainless steel. He modified the existing firing pin and it worked perfectly.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: Hawg on April 13, 2020, 08:12:08 AM
The easiest way is to weld the firing pin hole up and drill it in the proper place and install a bushing. Add a Colt hammer and you're good to go. I read on one of the forums where somebody just wallowed out the hole in the frame but it was blowing primers out of the cases.
Title: Re: FS keeping it
Post by: necessaryevil on April 13, 2020, 12:48:07 PM
The easiest way is to weld the firing pin hole up and drill it in the proper place and install a bushing. Add a Colt hammer and you're good to go. I read on one of the forums where somebody just wallowed out the hole in the frame but it was blowing primers out of the cases.

The tip of the firing pin in those cap and ball "Peacemakers" is shaped like a capital letter "D".

All he did was reduce the "D" on a lathe. It struck a perfect D shaped impression on the primers setting them all off perfectly.