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Author Topic: 1858 Gunslingers?  (Read 51732 times)

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Offline Marc Adamchek

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1858 Gunslingers?
« on: August 17, 2015, 07:51:54 PM »
Does anyone know of any famous, or rather infamous, western gunslinger who might have favored an 1858 Remington Army or Navy?

Offline M9Powell

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2015, 08:28:56 PM »
Frank James, Buffalo Bill, Custer. Cole Younger is known to have used one, but can't say he favored it, he used a lot of different weapons. Known to have been highly skilled with a knife.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 08:37:36 PM by M9Powell »

Offline Captainkirk

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2015, 08:36:17 PM »
Frank James, Buffalo Bill, Custer.

Frank James favored the 1875 Remmy.
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Offline M9Powell

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2015, 08:38:22 PM »
And the 58 before it.

Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2015, 11:34:39 AM »
Gentlemen,
            I sincerely doubt that George Armstrong Custer could qualify as a Gunslinger!  The man was an egomaniac, and seems from at least one episode in his quite colorful life, To have been remarkable clumsy with handguns!
            While on Patrol with the 7th. Cavalry in Indian Territory, he very stupidly left the column BY HIMSELF!  DID NOT tell any of his NCO's where he was going, and apparently went to try and shoot a buffalo with his service Revolver!  (Presumeably, just to see if it could be done!)  He apparently found such an animal, but was so inept, that while manoevering himself and horse to get in a position where he could kill the Buffalo, by mistake, shot his own horse in the head, killing the poor animal instantly!!!
            I have nothing but contempt for "The Boy General!"  He had the example of his Own Carbon Copy, Captain William J,
Fetterman, who at Fort Phil Kearney, willfully Disobeyed strict orders from his Commanding Officer, Colonel Henry B.Carrington, to NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, follow the Indians over Lodge Trail Ridge!  Fetterman had bragged that given 80 men, he could "Ride through the entire Sioux Nation!"  Well it so happened he had his 80 men!  So convinced that he KNEW IT ALL, He disobeyed Carrington EXPLICIT Orders, and followed the Indian War Party over Lodge Train Ridge, and down a narrow Canyon.  The Walls of which almost fell in on Fetterman and his eighty Men, Killing them To The Last Man,  Just before Christmas 1866!  No-body knew till later, but in charge of the Lakotah Party that day was a young Chieftain named, Crazy Horse!
            Custer had this Glaring Example of Military Stupidity which had doubtless been covered in his classes at West Point,
yet he made several VERY STUPID Errors, almost exactly nine and one half years later, at the Greasy Grass on June 25th 1876!  It was only by luck, and the skills of one of his Indian Trackers, that the Damned Fool was found, after he had idiotically killed his own Horse!  It would have been a Blessing for all concerned, had he died that day, and then the Fiasco of the so called, "Battle of The Little Bighorn," would not have appeared as a blot on the military History of The United States!
The man was so obsessed with becoming the Next Presiden of the United States, that the list of disobeyed orders, and errors he committed, are almost beyond belief. 
            #1. He deliberately left the Gatling Guns behind, fearing they would slow his progress!  For while the Military Plan was for Three Column to meet up together and entrap the Indians in a kind of Pincer Movement, Custer wanted to get there BEFORE the other two columns, so he could have the glory of capturing or killing the Indians ALL BY HIMSELF!  He had been expressly ordered NOT TO TAKE ANY NEWSPAPER CORRESPONDANTS with him!  BUt what is the point of a Glorioous Victory, if there is no-one there to write in the papers about your Brilliant and Glorious Victory!!!   SO he took a relative of his, Mark Kellog, a reporter for a prominent Eastern Newspaper. Of course Kellog was killed too!
            I forget the Actors Name, but in the Dustin Hoffman Movie, "Little Big Man," the actor who Plays the part of Custer, DID A MAGNIFICENT JOB, of portraying him as an over-bearing, Supercillious, Egotistical, Pompous Moron!  That Actor should have received an Oscar for the way he portrayed Custer as he really was in real life!  He caused the death of many members of the 7th Cavalry at the so called Battle of the Washita, Where he rode up in the pre-dawn darkness , in the dead of Winter, on the PEACEFUL VILLAGE of Black Kettle. Black Kettle raised the American Flag, then a White Flag, but the attack went on.  Custer, Master Tactician that he was,(?) had decided to attack the village from all four sides!  So Custer's men who were shooting from the west, were hitting their comrades on the east and vice Versa, and the same thing happened with the guys attacking from North and South!! Most of the Cavalry injuries and Deaths, were from, .45-70 Trapdoor Springfield rifles!
            Then Custer, took captive Black Kettle's Daughter, ostensibly as an, "Interpeter!"  Since the girl did not speak a word of English, this role for her seems a little strange. Back at Fort Abraham Lincoln, the Girl lived in Custer's Quarters, and only when  Mrs. Libby Custer was on her way to join "Autie," was the girl, by this time several months pregnant by Custer, thrown out into the Pole Corral, with all the other Indian Captives.  It was winter, and the Indian Captives just had threadbare Blankets, and had to fight one another for the mouldy remnants of the Cookhouse scraps, which were thrown into troughs just inside the pole corrals!  THAT is the kind of Arrogant, Self-Serving Bastard, George Armstrong Custer REALLY WAS!
            In 1876, it would not have been,"Politically Correct," to admit what a, "Utter and Complete Balls-Up," Custer made of the Engagement!.  Captain Benteen, for the sake of his own Military Career, which would have hit the Skids, had he opened his mouth and told the truth, still made it plain that he did not like the ,"Boy General!" 
            Some years ago now, the Great Country & Western Singer, Johnny Cash, sang a song about Custer. I think some of the first lines in the song were,"Now I want to tell you Buster, That I aint a Fan of Custer!"  In a reference to the So Called, "Battle of the Washita,"Some other lines read, "With victories he was swimming, He killed Children, Dogs, and Women, But the general he don't ride well anymore, Crazy Horse set out to Call, with Sitting Bull and Gall, and the General, He don't ride well Any More!"   
            This song was featured on an L.P Record I had of Johnny Cash, Songs of the American Indian. The Album was called, "Bitter Tears!"  If you come across one in a thrift store somewhere, GRAB IT!  I believe that Johnnie Cash was proud of his Cherokee Blood.
                                                                                     Johnnie Roper,Alias:Gunslinger9378.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 11:43:44 AM by Gunslinger9378 »
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Offline sltm1

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2015, 11:46:06 AM »
Gunslinger, thanks for the fine post. May I suggest next time you don't sugar coat your animosity??!! )L$
Life's tough...it's tougher when yer stupid !!

Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2015, 12:10:37 PM »
Dear Stml,
            I have never been one to tell it any other way, but the way I see it.  I have for years detested the way in which Custer is almost always portrayed as a Hero!  So I play the cards that I have, (The knowledge I have gained from studying and
reading the Histories of the Old West, and the Indian Wars.)  There are two books, written by Paul I. Wellman. One is about the Indian Wars of the Plains Indians. It is entitled, "Death on the Prairies." The other deals with the Southwestern Conflicts with Mainly!  the Apache Indians, and is called, "Death in the Desert!"  One of the lines in one of those books, has always remained engraved in my mind! Wellman wrote: "His treatment of the American Indian, is something that every white man should forever wear around his neck, like a Millstone of Shame!"  That sentence so struck me as pure truth, that even though it is years ago that I read it, it remains indelibly in my brain!
            Most of the "Treaties," the White Men made with various tribes, contained Wording such as, "As Long as the Sun shall Shine, as long as the fivers flow, As long as the Moon shall rise,  and as long as the grass shall grow!"  Which to any person of reasonable intelligence mans, "Forever!  Most, if not ALL of those treaties were broken, BY WHITE MEN, almost before the Ink was Dry!
            Once, which driving 18 wheelers, I stopped at an Indian Run Casino for a bite to eat.  The slot machines kept up an incessant chiming in the background, and as I rose to leave, I almost bumped into one of the Security Guards, He was a HUGE INDIAN!  Must have been about 6'-7", and built like Andre The Giant!  He grinned at me, and I couldn't help myself,  I jerked my thumb towards the sound of the slot machines, and said, "Hear those Chimes, The Indians are still Scalping the Palefaces!"  He had a good sense of humor, and his face almost split in two, as a delighted smile spread across his countenance. He then answered, "Well Sir, I do think it is about time we turned things around a little!" I replied, "Amen Brother!"
                                                                                     Johnnie Roper,Alias:GUnslinger9378.
Never make the mistake of thinking I will not shoot..........
Because it may be your very last mistake!

Offline M9Powell

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2015, 02:15:24 PM »
 Johnny I agree with almost everything you say about Custer, he was a loathsome fellow no doubt and if you interpret what I said to be making a hero out of Custer you are wrong. None of that changes THE FACT that he was a famous old west gunslinger and favored the 58. Which is what the OP asked for. He didn't ask for any judgements on their morality. I'm a son of the  {?(, so that alone should tell you my opinion of Custer.

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2015, 02:21:56 PM »
 " by mistake, shot his own horse in the head". I thought that I'd heard and read every thing negative about Custer until I started reading Johnny's posts. I thought there was a pretty fair portrayal of Custer in the movie "Son of the Morning Star". You can see the whole thing on YouTube. A pretty decent western movie in general.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline M9Powell

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2015, 02:27:30 PM »
 Don't take it personal Johnnie, and Please don't interpret it as me being a Custer fan, but just to play devil's advocate for a moment, don't you think a fellow that shot himself in the hand making fun of a man that shot his own horse, a bit of the pot calling the kettle black?

Offline Bishop Creek

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2015, 07:18:38 PM »
John Wesley Hardin, the famous Texas outlaw, said to have killed more men in personal combat than any other gunfighter in the Old West, used many different revolvers during his career, but he did shoot at least one person with an 1858 Remington. Writing in 1894 about an incident in 1869, Hardin said:

"Bradley saw me and tried to cut me off, getting in front of me with a pistol in one hand and a Bowie knife in the other. He commenced to fire on me, firing once, then snapping, then firing again. By this time we were within five or six feet of each other, and I fired with a Remington .45 [this was in 1869, so it had to be a cap and ball .44] at his heart and right after that at his head. As he staggered and fell, he said, 'O, Lordy, don't shoot me anymore.' I could not stop. I was shooting because I did not want to take chances on a reaction."*


*The Life of John Wesley Hardin, as Written by Himself. University of Oklahoma Press 1961 edition, pg. 21.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 07:42:53 PM by Bishop Creek »

Offline Bishop Creek

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2015, 08:01:53 PM »
For reference, Custer's Remington:


Offline Captainkirk

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2015, 08:13:40 PM »
Custer was indeed (IMHO) a horse's ass and I grew up thinking he was the cat's pajamas. It wasn't until a couple books in my teen years enlightened me, mainly "Battle of the Little Bighorn" by Mari Sandoz, in which she took Custer to task for the majority of his shenanigans, and virtually every book written since pretty much paints him up as an egotistic fool.
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Offline Bishop Creek

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2015, 08:16:13 PM »
Custer was indeed (IMHO) a horse's ass and I grew up thinking he was the cat's pajamas.

But at least he carried an 1858 Remington. He could have been a member of this forum.

Offline Captainkirk

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Re: 1858 Gunslingers?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2015, 08:39:50 PM »
Custer was indeed (IMHO) a horse's ass and I grew up thinking he was the cat's pajamas.

But at least he carried an 1858 Remington. He could have been a member of this forum.
There are times I believe that.. ::)
"You gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"