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Author Topic: Left hand "Grand Rifle"  (Read 5861 times)

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Offline mazo kid

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Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« on: March 07, 2014, 10:58:15 AM »
Next in the series of my left hand rifles is the Grand Rifle, made by Jones and Garner. Off side view


Offline mazo kid

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2014, 10:58:58 AM »
Entry pipe:

Offline mazo kid

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2014, 10:59:44 AM »
Nose cap:

Offline mazo kid

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2014, 11:00:46 AM »
Toe plate and trigger guard:

Offline mazo kid

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2014, 11:01:33 AM »
Lock and sliding wood patch box:

Offline Len

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2014, 11:54:55 AM »
Very nice !
Just a question on nomenclature: Does the designation "off hand side" change from a left handed to a right handed gun (or chap)?

Offline mazo kid

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2014, 12:05:10 PM »
Len, I'm not sure if that is a proper term or not. It is what I use to designate the side of the stock opposite the lock. So yes, it would change depending on what side the lock is on.

Offline Classanr

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2014, 02:36:19 PM »
When driving horses from a side-by-side (cart, buggy, wagon, carriage, stage coach, freighter), the "off hand" position is the one on the opposite side on the bench from the driver.

So, shotgun could be sitting "left" or "right", but in any case would be sitting "off-hand".

Interesting considerations follow:

The shotgun would be supported only by shoulder, cheek, strong-hand at the grip and weak-hand out under the forearm.  This is known as "off-hand" shooting (not braced on anything other than the body).  Mazo, shooting lefty, would hope to work with a driver who preferred to sit on the "left" side of the seat (as determined when facing the horse(s)).   Not many right-side drivers want a lefty to their left in the off-hand seat because a lefty's natural tendency is to swing the barrel clockwise, thus severely aggravating a driver's control of the horses when the gun is fired.

If the reins are passed to another for driving (as in "Gimmie that thing before you blow my head off.  Here, you drive"), the "off-hand" position switches opposite of the reins, even if the men don't themselves change positions.

So, I think Mazo has the terminology correct, both for modern-day and for as far back as guns guarded conveyances drawn by horses.

A little further misc detail:  Some coaches had a second foot brake (that long lever) on the off-hand side for the shotgun guy to stomp on to help slow the coach.  Also, it allowed for driver and guard to negotiate between themselves who sat where to do what.

Wait, Len, you know all this already, don't you  =K*
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Offline Len

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2014, 03:28:20 PM »
When driving horses from a side-by-side (cart, buggy, wagon, carriage, stage coach, freighter), the "off hand" position is the one on the opposite side on the bench from the driver.

So, shotgun could be sitting "left" or "right", but in any case would be sitting "off-hand".

Interesting considerations follow:

The shotgun would be supported only by shoulder, cheek, strong-hand at the grip and weak-hand out under the forearm.  This is known as "off-hand" shooting (not braced on anything other than the body).  Mazo, shooting lefty, would hope to work with a driver who preferred to sit on the "left" side of the seat (as determined when facing the horse(s)).   Not many right-side drivers want a lefty to their left in the off-hand seat because a lefty's natural tendency is to swing the barrel clockwise, thus severely aggravating a driver's control of the horses when the gun is fired.

If the reins are passed to another for driving (as in "Gimmie that thing before you blow my head off.  Here, you drive"), the "off-hand" position switches opposite of the reins, even if the men don't themselves change positions.

So, I think Mazo has the terminology correct, both for modern-day and for as far back as guns guarded conveyances drawn by horses.

A little further misc detail:  Some coaches had a second foot brake (that long lever) on the off-hand side for the shotgun guy to stomp on to help slow the coach.  Also, it allowed for driver and guard to negotiate between themselves who sat where to do what.

Wait, Len, you know all this already, don't you  =K*

Hi Class, no I don't/didn't know all this stuff. It's very interesting, but getting more and more difficult to follow, as the explanations get further elongated (if that's a proper expression).

What really started my question was something I remembered from an earlier post, about on what side the screw of some part of a Rem '58 was situated. The guy asking suggested the off hand side, and I didn't have an inkling of what he was talking about, so I said something like "if you hold the gun in your right hand, supported by your left hand, and the muzzle pointing away from your chest ... bla, bla, then the screw head is on  ....". How the H do you tell the off hand side of a gun with the hammer in the middle?

Offline Classanr

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2014, 07:48:22 PM »
When driving horses from a side-by-side (cart, buggy, wagon, carriage, stage coach, freighter), the "off hand" position is the one on the opposite side on the bench from the driver.

So, shotgun could be sitting "left" or "right", but in any case would be sitting "off-hand".

Interesting considerations follow:

The shotgun would be supported only by shoulder, cheek, strong-hand at the grip and weak-hand out under the forearm.  This is known as "off-hand" shooting (not braced on anything other than the body).  Mazo, shooting lefty, would hope to work with a driver who preferred to sit on the "left" side of the seat (as determined when facing the horse(s)).   Not many right-side drivers want a lefty to their left in the off-hand seat because a lefty's natural tendency is to swing the barrel clockwise, thus severely aggravating a driver's control of the horses when the gun is fired.

If the reins are passed to another for driving (as in "Gimmie that thing before you blow my head off.  Here, you drive"), the "off-hand" position switches opposite of the reins, even if the men don't themselves change positions.

So, I think Mazo has the terminology correct, both for modern-day and for as far back as guns guarded conveyances drawn by horses.

A little further misc detail:  Some coaches had a second foot brake (that long lever) on the off-hand side for the shotgun guy to stomp on to help slow the coach.  Also, it allowed for driver and guard to negotiate between themselves who sat where to do what.

Wait, Len, you know all this already, don't you  =K*

Hi Class, no I don't/didn't know all this stuff. It's very interesting, but getting more and more difficult to follow, as the explanations get further elongated (if that's a proper expression).

What really started my question was something I remembered from an earlier post, about on what side the screw of some part of a Rem '58 was situated. The guy asking suggested the off hand side, and I didn't have an inkling of what he was talking about, so I said something like "if you hold the gun in your right hand, supported by your left hand, and the muzzle pointing away from your chest ... bla, bla, then the screw head is on  ....". How the H do you tell the off hand side of a gun with the hammer in the middle?

I can understand the confusion.  The example you give was, unfortunately, a poor application of "off-hand" because "off-hand" is relative to the person holding the gun, not the gun's frame.

A coach or wagon does not have an "off-hand" the way a boat or plane has a "port" or "starboard".

As I gave in my example, "off-hand" means the side opposite of the controlling hand.  In the case of the example you gave, the shooter was right-handed, his left being the "off-hand".  Thus as he sees it, the screw heads were on *his* "off-hand" side.

"Frame-left when sighting in" would have taken care of that opportunity for mis-understanding.

In Mazo's examples, "off-hand" is correct, because the gun is clearly made for a lefty.  "Off-hand" would be correct for any that I have, because they are made for a righty.  But the "Off-hand" side on mine are opposite "Off-hand" sides of Mazo's.

Let's really give you an English Workout  )%R  "Strong side".  That's the side your trigger hand grips.  Therefore, flash, case ejection, bolt levers are located on the "Strong side" so your face can be located on the "Off hand" side and not get in the way.  Unfortunately, in horse driving, there is no "Strong side" for the driver to sit at.  The driver sits on the "Driver's Side"  )L$  England, that is to the Right (starboard).  France to the Left (Port).  USA, any ol' place the driver feels like, which might be in a hidden box in the coach so it looks like nobody is driving at all.
Jim Beam me, Scotty!  Life here is more intelligent than I.

Offline mazo kid

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2014, 10:25:31 AM »
Good illustrations Classanr. I have a friend who has teams of trained oxen; he gives demonstrations at large rendezvous and other events. "Offside" refers to the side opposite where he is usually standing when directing his team.

Offline Kaboom

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2014, 11:44:40 AM »
And here I thought "offside" was when your team crossed the scrimmage line before the ball was snapped. Duh, stupid me!  (u^
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Offline Mad Dog Stafford

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2014, 06:55:44 PM »
Very nice rifle mazo!  {?|
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Offline Classanr

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2014, 07:03:32 PM »
Good illustrations Classanr. I have a friend who has teams of trained oxen; he gives demonstrations at large rendezvous and other events. "Offside" refers to the side opposite where he is usually standing when directing his team.

Thank you.  I miss my draft horses, but I don't miss the vet bills, the carriage repairs, or the barn work.
Jim Beam me, Scotty!  Life here is more intelligent than I.

Offline Len

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Re: Left hand "Grand Rifle"
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2014, 11:46:30 AM »
Thanks for the info Classanr. (Me too miss the critters, but somehow the wallet feels a bit thicker now)