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Author Topic: What make-model for these flintlock parts?  (Read 12172 times)

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Offline Classanr

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2016, 02:57:42 PM »
What strikes me as odd is the frizzen seems to be mounted too high. Compare it to this one.



A good flint lock will fire the main charge before the frizzen is fully open. It will actually fire before the flint is halfway down the frizzen.

My fake flintlock doesn't even start to strike the frizzen until half-way down the face, and that is with a "long" flint.  Then, at about 2/3rds down, the flint and the frizzen lock up, which can only be remedied by using a shorter flint.  Which would mean the flint would not strike the frizzen until 3/4rs down the face, making it nearly impossible for the frizzen to flip back (unless there is no spring pressure).
I'm thinking the hammer head needs to be bent so the jaws are tilted more "down".
And I agree that the frizzen pivot seems to be mounted too high.
But it does a great job of covering the pan in its current location...
Man, whoever said "don't sweat the small stuff" never had to time a flintlock.
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Offline Hawg

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2016, 04:08:17 PM »
Here's one kinda similar to yours where the flint strikes toward the bottom but it's still fast. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCj4ZB_Hl5Q
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Offline Classanr

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2016, 04:43:20 PM »
Yes, might be the answer.  Between 15 secs and 22 secs you can see that "something" is wedging the frizzen spring so far away that the spring only touches the frizzen when it is fully open.  Of course that means the frizzen bounces back and forth 4 times, but the spark is good and the flint shoves the heat down into the pan.  Very short and pointy flint.  Methinks this might be one of Frizzen's slo-mo's.  The man is a genius at getting spark into the firehole.
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Offline Hawg

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2016, 04:50:53 PM »
It is, that's that fancy Yazel target pistol of his.
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Offline DD4lifeusmc

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2016, 06:24:03 PM »
Hawg's observation that the hammer pivot point is unusually low aligns with my initial judgement that the geometry is all screwed up, and that maybe this is a "toy" or "showpiece" lock from India.

You're giving me credit for something I didn't say.

Oops, that was Omnivore's observation.  Still, I think it is a good observation.

Then there is the missing metal in my fake flintlock...


the catalog has  a couple different groupings scattered through the book. Other than the actual brand names like Davis and L&R I think the others are just in a general grouping of locks.
As I said there is no manufacturer associated with the one I uploaded.
But it comes the closest to the one Classanr put up.
As was mentioned before, his is likely a cheap Spain or India  copy.
And the copiers got it a bit wrong.
But of the about 40 locks in the book that is the only one even close.
None of the triggers or guards came event close
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Offline Cross Plains Drifter

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2016, 07:10:49 PM »
nevermind........was looking at it wrong
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Offline 54mountain

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2017, 12:29:50 PM »
The lock is a Spanish lock and is off of an old Joker also known as junker kit gun from the early 70s some of the older CVA guns used the same lock.  The percussion version of the  same lock is serviceable with some work but the geometry of the flint locks was all wrong. 
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Offline Classanr

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2017, 05:28:05 PM »
The lock is a Spanish lock and is off of an old Joker also known as junker kit gun from the early 70s some of the older CVA guns used the same lock.  The percussion version of the  same lock is serviceable with some work but the geometry of the flint locks was all wrong.


I concur that the geometry is wrong.
"Junker Kit" eh?
Figures.
No hope to move the pivot points to make it work again?
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Offline AZshooter

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2017, 03:37:27 AM »




Also looking for parts source and tuneup info.
At first blush, this lock might not be worth the effort because:
1. the frizzen spring is twice the pressure as the hammer spring (it is a bugger to open even by hand);
2. the angle of the flint edge, while dragging down the frizzen, changes from 60deg to 90deg;
3. the frizzen does not open when struck by the flint - in fact by the time the flint is near the bottom of the frizzen, the flint's travel comes to a full stop and is exactly perpendicular to the frizzen.
4. manual "override" (forcing the flint further down) goes *negative* and the frizzen attempts to push the flint back up.

I'm trying to make a flintlock candle lighter.  Sparks do come off the frizzen, but there is very little actual travel and thus very few sparks.
the picture in the book isn't very good.
But looking close you can see the diagonal lines on the frizzen cover  and the engraving in the left end of the lock plate.

My book does not list this as any particular maker.   
It's included in the Lyman and CVA grouping primarily
But still there is no makers name associated with it.
But I'm almost positive they are the same lock  just by looking at it and the markings on it.
As far as I know it's still for sale.
Now is yours actually this lock, or maybe just a copy of it and is a bit off? couldn't tell you

Jukar comes to mind.  Known as able to build OK to low end of the low end components.  Notice the lock has no bridle to contain the sear & tumbler.  If you're unable to install even a short flint, the cock may be bent.  The downward angle of the cock jaws in the photo looks odd.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 03:41:46 AM by AZshooter »

Offline Classanr

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2017, 01:05:15 PM »
Eventually I will make a computer model of this contraption and swing the arcs and planes while working on theoretical adjustments.
Jim Beam me, Scotty!  Life here is more intelligent than I.

Offline prof marvel

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2017, 10:17:00 PM »
Eventually I will make a computer model of this contraption and swing the arcs and planes while working on theoretical adjustments.

orrrrr
you could get one of these kits for $115
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/724/1/LOCK-SS-FK-RH?PageSize=100

or just a good lock all ready to go for $149
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/724/1/LOCK-LK-F?PageSize=100

yhs
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Offline Classanr

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2017, 09:41:49 AM »
Right, and I could pay somebody to shoot my guns for me.  Lot less trouble there.  Strike a match, light the candle.  Amazingly, it seems to work for millions of people.  However, I am raised in the tradition of buying cheap and hitting myself on the head with the item until it works.  I have stuff stashed all over the place waiting to meet my head.
But the links are useful for determining proper geometry, so for sure thank you for those.  Hey, it might easily be I am doing something stoopid with what I have.  I due maik mistrakes now and than.
Jim Beam me, Scotty!  Life here is more intelligent than I.

Offline prof marvel

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2017, 12:30:07 AM »
...However, I am raised in the tradition of buying cheap and hitting myself on the head with the item until it works. 
I have stuff stashed all over the place waiting to meet my head.

Ah My Dear Class-
a gentleman after my own heart! I have a garage full of shit projects parts waiting to meet with my head !

perhaps this might be more in line with your needs:

here is a nice diagram of a late Ketland lock
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d6/b2/62/d6b2622c16279f89cfcfd4ede3ee3cf6.jpg

here is a view of a scandanavian lock
http://www.svartkrutt.net/articles/bilder/flintlaasdeler/flintlaasdeler_01stor.gif

and best of all here ( if you scroll down) are the dimensioned diagrams of a lock for what appears
to be an English Sporting Rifle, shotgun butt, half-round half-octagon barrel:
http://forum.mlagb.com/YaBB.pl?action=print;num=1419265404

I'll have to try to find my Kit Ravenshear book on building locks....

yhs
prof marvel

postscript: aw crap I fell downthe rabitthole with lorenzo's lorenzin 'Lorenzoni' systems...
and found this guys site on building a V-thingy Manton lock from a kit, whichight actually help you out....

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/mantonlock/mantonlock.html

yhs again
pm
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 12:45:13 AM by prof marvel »
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Offline Classanr

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2017, 09:41:15 AM »
I have had the pleasure of shooting several of Len's genuine antique flintlocks, hand guns all.  Close observation defined the tangent to the entire arc along the travel of the cutting edge of the flint on its way from full cock to striking the frizzen and scraping metal off the fizzen until the frizzen was held open by the spring and the flint was pointing into the pan.  The tangent remained 60 degrees angle to the face of the frizzen during its travel.

Len's antiques have sightly concave frizzens, and depending on how far out the shooter mounts the flint, the scraping area on the frizzen is upwards of 50percent of the frizzen face.

Naturally the angle of the frizzen changes as it opens.  As the flint's angle goes from nearly horizontal to nearly vertical, the struck portion of the frizzen (a continuing moving target that rises as the flint falls) moves from over-vertical on the the left to vertical (as when looking at the flash hole).  When the frizzen moves past vertical, the flint has finished its scraping job, so the frizzen continues to move out of the way of the flash in the pan.
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Offline Classanr

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Re: What make-model for these flintlock parts?
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2017, 10:05:29 AM »
One thing to keep in mind about drawings is that many many of the originators intentionally mis-drew one or two critical elements.  For instance, a hole might be 1/4" off, or a bearing arm might be 1/8" too long.  The master maker would know these measurements to be wrong, but would never tell anybody.  Thus faithful copies of the drawings would/will produce poor products.  This is why understanding the geometry and the stresses and the wear patterns in the product's design is important.  I would not be surprised to discover I have a "faithful" reproduction made from purloined drawings.

I like the advice to make cardboard parts, use pins for bearings, and examine the function in very slow motion, making small adjustments as required.
Jim Beam me, Scotty!  Life here is more intelligent than I.