The 1858 Remington Forum

Other Black Powder Firearms => La Longue Carabine => Breechloaders => Topic started by: Racing on April 17, 2021, 01:38:01 PM

Title: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on April 17, 2021, 01:38:01 PM
MIGHT be as such that i had an offer for this carbine accepted.
Why i say might is...down in Italy and it´s been a bit of back and forth thus long..
Anyway.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3Rzms0NV/100.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/jqJzzckb/101.jpg)

For those not in the loop the Starr works along the lines of a Sharps. Just sports a different "seal" for the chamber. As to if this is better or not, you tell me. What we DO know is that a stock Sharps leaks gasses it isn´t even funny.
So no wonder mr Hahn and his solution being as wide spread as it is.

(https://i.postimg.cc/02YD4QsX/102.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7Zq0rkPH/103.jpg)

The gun looks solid enough alright. As to the pitfalls and downsides i guess we´ll see soon enough, or.. hope to.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SKs9jfzH/104.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/SKvM9Y6R/105.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/634Gf6c0/106.jpg)

They said they accept my offer. As to if.. we´ll know soon enough. If it stands i´ll transfer money tuesday, which means that with a little luck the piece should be with me come the week after.
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Hawg on April 17, 2021, 10:54:34 PM
You get all the neatest toys.
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Grumpy gumpy on April 18, 2021, 03:25:38 AM
You get all the neatest toys.
I second that statement
gumpy
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on April 22, 2021, 05:45:42 PM
Thx guys.

Money en route.
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Captainkirk on April 25, 2021, 06:45:56 PM
Is this the same Starr Co. of SA/DA revolver fame?
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on April 27, 2021, 08:09:08 PM
To my knowledge, yes.
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Sooty Barrels on April 29, 2021, 05:34:46 AM
Good looking rifle  (T^
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on May 03, 2021, 04:02:19 PM
Hey, thx!
..n can´t but agree.

Sometimes, just sometimes, things come out in your favor.
This turned out to be one of those instances, the gun is in WAY WAY WAY better shape than expected.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRJPWY0d/7.jpg)

As some of you are aware i´ve got a Sharps rifle standing around as well and the similaritys these between is no laughing matter. Reading up though it turns out that the Starr was well regarded by officials, why the orders were placed, but things F´ed up as they needed ammo in the field.
Some schmuck had come to the conclusion that these guns take the same ammo as the Sharps, which is far from the truth.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wz3M79Gp/8.jpg)

They´re referenced at 0,555" caliber, which in essence puts them together with the Burnside and what not. So first up the boolit for a Sharps is dead wrong and in turn the cartridge for a stock Sharps CARBINE is shorter than for the Starr.
So no WONDER the gun got a bad rep as a "lost fire" piece!

(https://i.postimg.cc/xTXvJ4jt/9.jpg)

Well today we know better and indeed i shoved a Sharps ringtail through there. A 547 one, and indeed it took the rifling but sure as hell didn´t fill it. So going to turn a few larger boolits down on the lathe of mine and ram through there to get a better match but.. that they should differ along the lines of 2/10mm sounds about right to me at least.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0Q5m8tHG/10.jpg)

This is a short barrel carbine after all but the OEM linen cartridges were referenced using approx 65 grains of blackpowder. That´s a rather far cry from the Smith 45 and what not..
So that the Starr is a powerhouse by that measure should be no surprise.

(https://i.postimg.cc/85CJ87jt/13.jpg)

Now. For some reason the Italian auction house claimed that this gun had been worked on to take metallic cartridges. Ie; a´la Burnside, Gallagher and what not.
This turned out to be just hogwash, and the gun is in as stock shape and form as they come. Not only that, it´s all there..nothing´s beaten up or busted (apart from a small wooden crack).
However the falling block mechanism sure showed some wear. Rifling in turn? Well, not like new but in REAL nice shape. A tad of frosting and dirt..that´s about it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2pLJvvF/14.jpg)

No. In essence there´s no pitting to be found. Piece looks like this.. everywhere. There´s even original blue to be found underneath the forearm and the barrel band.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mZt8xw1f/16.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/G2NP3WT0/17.jpg)

So what we´ve got here is a rather nice Starr carbine really, one misjudged by the Italians by a landslide. Good for me tho!

(https://i.postimg.cc/HstJ6GWp/18.jpg)

Yep. Rear sight is intact too...

(https://i.postimg.cc/q72HGr0w/21.jpg)

From a tad of a distance i guess most can see the resemblance to a Sharps. Falling block after all but...

(https://i.postimg.cc/NFDgkc6S/20.jpg)

..in contrast to a Sharps these two parts interact via the lever. Let´s each other loose and as you close the lever..locks each other up.

"Rattle" of these parts though were way beyond reasonable why i took to close that up first thing. Now the...

(https://i.postimg.cc/kgpgHq0d/19.jpg)

..chamber "lid" truly engages with the coresponding cone of the barrel - for at least some sort of seal. Think i´ll look into that. First up clean the surfaces up and then look into what needs to be done to make the piece at least reasonably leakage free... Some sort of gasket solution is in order i believe.

Anyways.
GREAT gun in absolutely GREAT shape seeing its age, and we´ll take it from there my friends!  {_K {_K (5&
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on May 03, 2021, 04:32:05 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYrZbktn/22.jpg)

From the chamber end...

(https://i.postimg.cc/3wLNd6h1/29.jpg)

..in turn the muzzle end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0QcQK4qZ/26.jpg)

Original blue.

(https://i.postimg.cc/6QBtVhcP/27.jpg)

..and a serial.

Yup.
Happy as pie!  :) {L*
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Grumpy gumpy on May 03, 2021, 05:15:47 PM
 That’s nice, looks like you did well in that deal
Gumpy
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Captainkirk on May 03, 2021, 06:47:52 PM
You're like a cat...you always seem to land on your feet! Nice score there!
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on May 04, 2021, 02:26:52 PM
Mm Capt.
"Toss of the dice". That simple really. Thanks

Work has progressed and the thing is slowly coming full circle. Found "prints" for the original bore rider boolit for the Starr and am going to hand my friend Daniel a sorts of simple blueprint to cut a mold of it.

On record i´ve come to be of the opinion/notion that ALL old BP firearms that uses a paper cartridge should use a bore rider boolit. Yes. It makes for THAT much of a difference from a performance POW.
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on May 05, 2021, 02:56:48 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/bv4vJd6k/31.jpg)

It´s been quite a few small things.. Of course a fresh crown while at it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/T2VPddn5/32.jpg)

Only part of the gun that shows any appreciable wear is the seal, or rather the sealing surfaces. What i did was turn a brass shim of sorts and installed press fit vs the cutout in the "lid" for the chamber.
Sure handed a way more level surface for the barrel cone to work against.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nhzVGqgq/33.jpg)

Uhu. Cleaned that area up rather extensive too. As it turns out this seems to be the hot ticket and if all goes well that brass disc/shim and that cone there will marry best as they see fit under load (read - firing).

We´ll see how it goes.

Daniel just PM´d me over Facebook and told that his CAD´s for a downright crapload of different molds are done and we´re ready to rev that CNC up.
Going to be interesting to say the least.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RZxgxTQz/34.png)

Bore rider, indeed. Measurements taken from a YT video some kind soul put up. How it performs, well.. As some of you know i´m ALL for bore riders when we´re into paper cartridge guns.. Rest remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Grumpy gumpy on May 05, 2021, 05:09:05 PM
 I’m waiting patiently for the shooting report on another fascinating firearm
Gumpy
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on May 06, 2021, 06:10:59 PM
Thx GG.
Yeah, count on it.

I was asked what´s so imperative about making the breech of a breech loader seal.
Well..
First up, from a pure practical point of view, shooting with a gun that leaks massive amounts simply ain´t no fun. Hot powder gasses is rather bad to be honest, from every aspect there is.

But more so it´s a matter of efficiency. The more closed up the breech of a paper cartridge, or similar, gun the better. This can be proven simply by the fact that the more sealed off the whiter the actual chamber gets - which is a good thing. In short showing evidence of better combustion.
In my opinion this holds true for every paper and so on cartridge gun out there. From that point of view they ALL need all the help they can get in this dept no matter if a Sharps, a Starr, a Monkey tail or whatever.

So.

This Starr, peculiar thing about it is that the only part of it that shows any appreciable wear is the actual breech and its sealing lid. Thus the surfaces needed to be trued, which is one thing, but the fact of the matter is that the sealing surface of the "lid" was beyond reasonable - looking like a damn moon landscape just about.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bw3gTVdB/35.jpg)

I normally use some sort of yellow metal for this. Reason for this is that it´s, from a tech standpoint, soft and thus repeatably mallable. What´s more it WILL "work harden" and thus come to seal worse n worse by the minute, the more use it sees but.. beauty of it is that all you do to return to zero is that you heat the part up with a torch. Presto, soft again at the drop of a hat.

Well. This time out i cut a "shim" that carries a 20mm outer diameter and a 17mm inner. Practical tests in turn told that the shim needs to be of approx 1mm thickness.

So i cut the shim to 1,1mm and then honed the thing to correct thickness. THIS is the imperative part as i check often as i progress.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wMQLB3mG/36.jpg)

N here we go. Ready to be installed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7Pn20G5B/37.jpg)

Indeed. Checking for correct thickness is something do say.. 50 times as work progress. Finally you reach a point where the loading lever lets you know that for the last say 1/2" of movement more force is needed to make the thing close.
At that point..hammer rearwards and finger atop the nipple hole...and blown down the muzzle.

If you´re on the money you´ll just baaaaaarely be able to push any air through.

Then. Just imagine how that sealing surface looked underneath that brass shim- by the picture. Of course there´s no way in hell that by rust disturbed surface will fit 100% vs the shim..
So i install with a rather special 2 comp epoxy. One made for the task so to say. Glue the original surface and the shim both, place the shim in the recess and then close the action. Stiff
Let sit for a couple of hrs so the epoxy gets a reasonable chance to cure.

Of course the spare glue is removed and when done you repeat the "blow test". Most likely it´ll be like..shut.

Since today this Starr is. Shut that is. Of course this is NOT the same as the expanding gasses from shooting the thing but at least we´re at a reasonable level of bypass, one we can live with.
What´s more that shim can be annealed at will and what´s more..replaced at will too. Now i KNOW what dimensions are needed rendering that i can by any means cut as many shims i see fit.

This done we´re at the point where this ol´ carbine is ready for the range. So i turned a matrix to roll cartridges, got home and sat down with the paper i use and rolled a few.
This matrix done after the actual chamber dimensions but... HELL NO!  {:( {:(

Cartridges are roomy to say the least brothers! They´ll take an EASY 100 grains of powder... NOT what i asked for so come tomorrow i´ll turn a couple of fresh ones of lesser diameter.
Total length being of importance, diameter not so much - thanks to the bore rider boolit design. A full 70 grains of BP sure does it, this is a carbine after all, but i´m also giving thought to turning yet another one that´ll take like 50-55 to be used with T7.

We KNOW from experience that T7 works very well in short barrel guns why a carbine.. Well, in short it´d be a manner in which to get rifle like performance out of a short barrel carbine.
Only thing to keep in mind with them matrix pieces is to leave room enough for a decent grease cookie...

We´ll take it from there boys.
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Captainkirk on May 07, 2021, 08:28:08 AM
Very nice progress on a very worthy recipient.
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Miguel Loco on May 07, 2021, 03:43:20 PM
Great job!!
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on May 08, 2021, 05:43:09 AM
Thx guys.

Turned yet another matrix to roll cartridges. This time out, to fill the chamber, it ended up being 14,2mm*42mm. (0,559" * 1,65").
Thing still roomy tho. Still takes inxs of 90 grains.

This is a good thing however. Hands me a cylindrical paper cartridge that takes the powder needed AND an ample size grease cookie plus some "washers".
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on May 09, 2021, 04:14:28 AM
As noted i took the measurements for that bore-rider off of a YT video, and believe them to be correct by any means.
But..
Just a hunch, a notion. So turned a No of plugs out of aluminium to shove down the bore and that 13,30mm dimension for the actual part that comes to rest on the bore is off.
So.
We altered that to a more fitting 13,75mm. Thought it at least would be worthwile to mention...
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on May 11, 2021, 04:33:50 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/1X2Gbrsj/38.jpg)

Here we go...
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on May 14, 2021, 06:29:55 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/mkWKVX7G/40.jpg)

That´s a 100+ paper hulls. As stated these came out rather roomy, not so intended. Name of the game i guess.

(https://i.postimg.cc/J0bCLVRn/39.jpg)

For lack of the "correct" boolit i tried loading a few up with the 515 Sharps ringtail. As it turns out these are bore-riders in the Starr too! Yep. Their lesser diameter, the ringtail has a pronounced drive band at the rear, makes them drop right in.

Of course the chamber wasn´t thought to use bore-riders from the onset, bore-riders leaving that most of the boolit will disappear into the rifling leaving that part of the chamber a void.
Thus, i guess, the roomy cartridges. 90 grains+ all said n done.
No matter. These are loaded up with 65 grains of powder, rest is filler. All good.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mrcq4fws/41.jpg)

Had made my calculations on the money as far as the various diameters and ogives, no worries there. Buuuut... can´t see the intent was for an almost 600 grains heavy boolit.
Will need to readress that, question is how.?

(https://i.postimg.cc/25Pt8ccB/43.jpg)

That said at the moment it´s all about getting the thing up and running. So.. said 590 boolit coupled with 65 grains of powder n.. filler..

We´re good to go, and as the diameters are on par what can be expected is a different point of where it prints i guess. No worries there either.
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on May 14, 2021, 03:06:40 PM
Guys.
Where to start?
1st thing´s first. The thing runs like a locomotive. Period.

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2SBkSq6/45.jpg)

Yes. Living history. Yep. I´m spoiled. Rotten.  (?^

(https://i.postimg.cc/D0SBXJyN/47.jpg)

This.. this is the dangerous end. Promise.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9FqLX7kR/48.jpg)

Yep. We shot a little of this, a little of that. Per usual.

Then boys. What you´ve been waiting for.
A civil war Starr in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtTElkX0uQU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtTElkX0uQU)

Indeed.
Title: Re: Starr carbine
Post by: Racing on May 24, 2021, 04:19:27 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrcq4fws/41.jpg)

Yeah,look. Bore riders n paper cartridge guns. Don´t get me started.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NLh72dny/50.jpg)

Recall i made these with 65 grains of powder and rice as filler? No charge ladder no nothing, just plain what they were referenced with back in the day. Although a rather lot heavier boolit but.. nevermind.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8C3HVkbB/54.jpg)

Rifling of the thing is above decent for an old original. I´d even call it good. But see... Still.

One MAJOR drawback of these guns are their sights. The rear sight is a friggin JOKE, and this needs to be adressed. As is you´re friggin GUESSING where the tip of the front sight is at.
Yes!
It is THAT bad!

(https://i.postimg.cc/jq9BF1RJ/56.jpg)

That said. That there three holes from a sitting position.. hardly being able to tell where the sights are at.

Did i mention that bore-riders and paper cartridge guns goes together real well? Did i?` (?^ (?^

Going to handle that rear sight but.. have put her up for sale. Where that´ll end is anybodys guess.. But if she´s still around next outing i´ll go at it with a rear sight we can USE.  :9)