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1858 Remington Discussions => 1858 Remington Revolvers => Topic started by: Norsman on October 21, 2016, 01:47:56 PM

Title: Sighting in the '58 Remington Target model
Post by: Norsman on October 21, 2016, 01:47:56 PM
   Need some information as sighting in my '58 Remington Target model. As for the front blade, target is at top of blade, got that part. My question is the rear adjustable sight, are the increments metric, since it's made Italy? Or is it a WAG, (Wild Ass Guesstamation)??

    Thanks Much, Norsman.....
Title: Re: Sighting in the '58 Remington Target model
Post by: Omnivore on October 21, 2016, 02:13:33 PM
My Pietta Remington Target rear sight has no increments - just an infinite screw adjustment, i.e. no clicks.  But then Uberti also makes a "Target" model, and you don't say which one you have.

My Pietta, and according to the reviews most any of the Pietta Targets, shot extremely high as shipped from the factory, and so it needed the rear sight ground way down.  I ground the rear blade down to the top of the base, and then beyond, to where I was grinding/sanding down the base itself, and it still shoots high.  My next move is to replace the front sight with a taller one.

Regarding the process; it doesn't much matter whether you have increments or the infinite adjustment.  You shoot a group, keeping the exact point of aim for every shot.  Then make the adjustment (high, low, right, or left according to the location of the center of your group relative to point of aim), and then shoot another group to verify, make further adjustments as necessary, until you have it hitting right where you want it.  It's the same process whether your sight adjustments have click increments or not.

Reading the manual would probably answer your specific question anyway (whether the adjustment has a click value or not).  Again my Pietta does not, and I believe that none of them do.

Preferably, that would all be done after you've determined which particular load shoots the smallest groups for you.
Title: Re: Sighting in the '58 Remington Target model
Post by: Dave Shooter on October 21, 2016, 03:50:37 PM
Norsman, to piggyback on Omni's comment.  You can calibrate the adjustable sight.  Fire a group at a known distance.  Adjust the sight one full turn and fire another group using same sighting.  Measure the distance between the groups.  Now you can do the math and figure out how much sight adjustment move point of impact.

Title: Re: Sighting in the '58 Remington Target model
Post by: Omnivore on October 21, 2016, 04:39:59 PM
I maintain that knowing the thread pitch (which, by the way, you could determine using a 5 or 10 dollar pitch gauge) is unnecessary.  You shoot, asjust, shoot, etc., until it's hitting where you want.  You'll be doing that to some extent, whether you know the thread pitch or not, anyway.

The other method, if you're looking for clues as to HOW FAR to move the rear sight, would be to measure the first group's Point Of Aim verses Point of Impact offset.  Take the known distance to the target in sight radii (sight radius is the distance between the front and rear sights), and divide the POA/POI offset by the distance in sight radii.  That's how far your rear sight needs to move.


Fire a group on paper at a measured distance (usually 25 yards).  Three to five shots is usually enough, depending on your shooting skill.  For an initial group I often fire only one shot, if it felt like a good shot.  Maybe two.  That will depend on your shooting confidence. - like I said earlier; you'll want to know your accuracy is good (meaning you're getting small groups, even if they're way off of point of aim) before you do any of this.  Three to four inch, five-shot groups should be fairly easy to obtain with a basic Italian repro.

Let's say the center of your fired group on paper is twelve inches too high at 25 yards.

Say your sight radius is ten inches. (I don't know your sight radius - this is just an example - you'll have to measure it yourself)

Now convert the distance to the target from yards into sight radii;
First convert yards to inches-- 25 yards x 3 x 12 = 900 inches.
Now convert to sight radii; 900 inches = 90 sight radii (900/10).

Your group offset (12 inches) divided by 90 = 0.13"

Lower your rear sight by 0.13" (regardless of the adjustment screw pitch).  Shoot another group to verify.  Make further, finer adjustments as necessary.

You'll soon find that knowing the exact numbers becomes less and less necassary, because you can see very well whether your shots are hitting where you aim.

I'll only do that math when I have to file down a sight, or make a new, taller sight, so I have some idea of how much metal to add or subtract from the original sight.  Otherwise it's "Shoot, adjust, shoot, adjust...", until the gun is hitting where you want.

The only time you REALLY need to know exact adjustment increment values is in long distance rifle shooting, where you're making sight adjustments for widely different distances on a regular basis, out past 300 yards or more.  Pistols aren't generally used that way-- Typically you'll set the sights and leave them set, until you change loads or something and have to tweak the sights a tiny bit.

Get ye out into the field and do some shooting, and this stuff will all become second nature very quickly.  Then you won't have to become bored by reading all our instructions.
Title: Re: Sighting in the '58 Remington Target model
Post by: Norsman on October 21, 2016, 04:41:34 PM
   Omnivore,  Mines a Pietta also, I peeked around the web to get an answer. Only thing there was filing the blade down with the hard sights. Too damn bad that Pietta didn't send anything with the Remmy covering sighting it in. So WAG it is.....lil this, lil that....

   Want to thank you gentlemen for your input, Take Care, Have a good Friday. It's Pizza Night in this house tonight!! Norsman.....
Title: Re: Sighting in the '58 Remington Target model
Post by: Dellbert on October 22, 2016, 09:08:39 AM
Hi Norsman. Before you file anything try firing that Target model. The Pietta Remington NMA Target Model sold at Cabelas was my first black powder hand gun. The first time out load it with a lite load of 20 grs of powder. I found out by accident that, that 20gr load was grouping 2 1/2" groups @ 25 yards. When I first started out with it, I was loading it kind of hot and the rd balls were hitting the paper target all over the place @ 25 yds. It got to where I didn't know weather to throw it away or sell it. The next day I decided to give it another try and loaded each chamber with just 20 grs of powder and there it was six shot 2 1/2" group @ 25 yrds could not believe my eyes. Loaded up again with the same load. I had a 5" round disc @ 25 yrds six shots six hits. When you start to add more powder 25, 30, 35 grs the groups start to open up and that seems to be normal. Now that's just me others may have had different results with their guns. I did read one other on another thread say that "their Remington Target Model was the most accurate bp revolver they had with 20 gr loads". Since I had to learn most of this on my own back in the 80s I give credit to the bp forum's for learning different loading technique's. Then C K found me on another forum and sent me an invite to this forum and, well here I stay. I admit to a visit to three forums just to read and maybe make a couple post, but this is home. Still haft to say I've learned a lot from these guys. It's like family here, also a text book on black powder shooting. (T^
Title: Re: Sighting in the '58 Remington Target model
Post by: Omnivore on October 22, 2016, 09:32:15 AM
So WAG it is.....lil this, lil that....

Norsman; we've answered your questions completely, right here.  There's nothing left to know, unless you still have some other question(s), or unless we failed to understand your original questions.

Once you know that the rear sight must be moved in the same direction that you want to move the bullet's impact, there are no "Wild Ass Guesses".  There are instead "Educated Intelligent Estimations" or EIEs.

Combine your Educated Intelligent Estimations (EIE) with Intuitive Operation (IO), and now you're singing "E I E I O!!" down on the farm.  There are no WAG WAGs here, or WAG WAGs there...
Title: Re: Sighting in the '58 Remington Target model
Post by: Norsman on October 22, 2016, 02:43:13 PM
   OK folks, no reason to gettin' upset, I appreciate all advice and knowledge. I'm takin' notes and takin' my time, well don't have much of a chose with the range being flooded.

   Again, thanks much, take care, Norsman........   
Title: Re: Sighting in the '58 Remington Target model
Post by: Omnivore on October 24, 2016, 12:27:23 AM
Norsman; I'm sorry if I made it seem as though I was upset.  I assure you I was not.  My only intention was to convey information.  There is definitely something wrong with the way I communicate, because you're not the only one who's reacted like that.

There's always an uncomfortable period when getting to know someone, whether in person or on line.  When a simple question is asked, such as "what are the increments on the my rear sight adjustment".  Since I don't know you, I'm unsure whether I should give a graduate level answer to what seems like an elementary question (which would be offensifpve an fps unhelpful), or if I am misunderstanding the question.  Giving en elementary answer to a graduate level question will also be taken as offensive, so at first we're between a rock and a hard place.  Or do I press for a more refined question?  That too could be seen as badgering.

And so I try to take the question at face value, as best as I can understand it, and answer accordingly, with no opinion or judgement that could be taken as offensive.  I fail at this often.  Maybe it was my attempt at humor at the end, but I thought it was funny and I assumed you would also think it funny.

I assumed you had most likely understood the ideas presented, and so when you went back to "WAG,  I guess" I figured you either did not read the answers, did not understand them, or they failed to address your question.  That's why I mentioned the possibility that we had failed to grasp the meaning of your question, and suggested that maybe you should refine the question further.

My ONLY interesting in conveying and trading information, which in turn would improve the shooting experiences of others.  I don't even want credit for it, because as a matter of fact I didn't invent a single one of these concepts.  I have however been shooting for decades, and made a career out of designing and building firearm accessories, with a major focus on sighting systems.  I KNOW for a fact that I can help you, and so I tend jump right into the attempt with vigor.  Maybe I get overzealous.  Dave Shooter makes a good point, I dive right and embellish it, assuming that you're right there with us, and then, "POW!" I've upset someone.  This has been happening to me for forty years (a high school teacher blew up at like you wouldn't believe, and I was taken entirely by surprise) and I honestly don't know how to avoid it.  Sorry.  Just ignore me if necessary, or tell me to shut up.
Title: Re: Sighting in the '58 Remington Target model
Post by: ssb73q on October 24, 2016, 05:09:41 AM
Hi Norsman, you should never need to file down the front sight of a Pietta BP revolver equipped with adjustable sights.

The rear sight elevation adjustment of the Pietta has both a lock screw and adjustment screw. The large screw closest to the muzzle is the screw holding the sight to the frame. The small screw is the adjustment screw, and the rear larger screw is the lock screw. Loosen the lock screw and adjust the small screw to have the poi=poa. Windage is adjusted by loosing one of the side screws and moving the other.

Just to be certain you understand the sight picture you should have: Aim the revolver such that the top of the front sight is positioned at the center of the target and that the front sight fills the rear sight notch. The top of the front sight should be at the top of the rear blade opening and on the center of the target.

Title: Re: Sighting in the '58 Remington Target model
Post by: Norsman on October 25, 2016, 07:59:20 AM
Dave, Omnivore, Delbert and ssb73q,

   Omnivore, I understand completely, no worries. WAG, SNAFU, CYA, GYS are all part of my vocabulary. 28 years Wildland fire, 2 years Cal Fire, 26 U.S. Forest Service. The latter is where we used  the acronyms, Becomes habit. Prior to that 15 years loggin' and saw mills.

   Just want to thank all of you for the intel. Pourin' ass rain still. Take care, Norsman....