Author Topic: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7  (Read 5030 times)

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Offline Remmie58

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FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« on: April 25, 2015, 02:24:36 AM »
Anybody know?

Offline robertmcw

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Re: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2015, 07:39:37 AM »
I think it depends that old the bottle is as the stuff it is made from downgrades with age unlike real black powder.  I had an older bottle and loaded the cylinder with 35 grains with triple and a wonder wad and did not shot it for about two years.  It felt the ball just rolled out of the barrel.  I used my Hawken and I had a hang fire with triple and I missed a nice deer and it was FREEZING and that pisssed me off so bad that I switched to Swiss and have no more hang fires.  I can load the Hawken with Swiss for over a year and she goes bang right now.
Now I ONLY use Swiss.
This chart is based on Goex but fresh tipple three is said to be hotter - about as the same as Swiss

http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/RB-Pistol-Revolvers.pdf

Happy Shooting
RM


Online DD4lifeusmc

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Offline ssb73q

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Re: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2015, 09:21:33 AM »
Anybody know?

Hi Remmie58, you can use these results on powder energy and back calculate bullet energy, see:
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=6410.msg101812#msg101812

You can assume that all powders energy are directly proportional to weight in an 8" barreled revolver.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2015, 01:32:54 PM »
Dear Friends,
            I have never (And WILL NEVER!) use Triple 7 Powder,  However I do have the excellent book written by MIke Cumpston and Johnny Bates: "Percussion Revolvers." "A Guide to their History, Performance and use!"  In this book are details of their testings with various powders of a great many different Percussion Revolvers, from the Colt Patterson, and Walker COlt, to the Le Mat and Rogers & Spencer.  Here are a few of the velocities obtained with various charges of the Semi-Smokeless powder, Triple 7.
            In the Colt Walker, 37 grns of T-7 got a velocity of 1201 fps. with a .454 Ball.In the Dragoon, the same sized ball got 1101 fps with 2 grains less, 35 grns of T-7  In the Colt .31 Pocket, 10 grns got 650 fps, in the Colt Navy .36, 22 grns got 1070 fps. The .36 Pocket Navy with 15 grns achieved 596 fps.
Our beloved 1858 Remington in .44, achieved 1061 fps. with 35 grns pushing the 194 grn. Ramlock Bullet. It would seem that the authors never did put more than 35 grains of this powder in a Sidearm-Sized revolver! (I Wonder Why?)
            Shooting the LeMat Revolver, which apparently requires a .451 projectile, 24 grns of T-7 got 1066 fps., while Dear Old Pyrodex P obtained with just four grains more, 28 grns, a velocity 835 fps?
            Moving onto something that is known for it's strength and durability, The Renowned Ruger Old Army Revolver, in this case firing the .457 Ball,35 grains of T-7 was clocked at 1008 fps!and 40 rains clocked 1066 fps.
            I found it interesting to note, that in this Ruger Revolver, which we all know to be a very strong gun, 35 grains of both T-7, and Pyrodex P,  gave quite similar velocities, with the T-7 only 15 fps faster that Dear Old Pyrodex P!  993 for the Pyrodex P, and 1008 for the T-7!,  (As noted in the last paragraph!)
            SO, Remmie 58, I hope that this information has been of help to you.  What with the warning by Hogden about being VERY careful to load 15% less than the advised charge with Holy Black, plus the fact that as a small boy, I HATED Arithmatic with a Purple Passion, I shall continue to avoid Triple Seven Powder.  The thought of having to get a calculator out, and work out what amount is less than my usual load of Pyrodex P, brings shudders to my soul!  Suppose I blew Betsina apart! That makes me shudder as well, for she is my Firstborn, of my three Sheriffs Models, so to speak, and she holds a warm place in my heart! (She also, most of the time! LIVES in a warm place beneath my left armpit.) and allows me to go abroad in this Cruel World, with a feeling of Confidence!
                                                                                     Johnnie Roper,Alias:Gunslinger9378.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 02:07:23 PM by Gunslinger9378 »
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Offline rodwha

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Re: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2015, 03:29:54 PM »
Johnnie:
You apparently haven't read Hodgdon's warnings. Maybe it's the "monkey read, monkey type?" Here it is from their site:

"To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%."

As you see there is nothing about being careful to reduce the load by 15% as you, and many others, state.

May as well also look at the need to barely compress it as its another of those misconceptions that's also spouted frequently.
"Were I to leave where else would I go? Your words of life and of truth You hold." - Third Day

Online DD4lifeusmc

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Re: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2015, 05:24:06 PM »
As Rodwha noted.the 15% reduction has nothing to do with safety or excess pressure.
It is mostly for match and competition shooters.
IF (picking random numbers here)  a 35 grain load of BP in a 8" barrel 1858 Remmie  with a 140 gr round ball produces 850 fps at the muzzle.
Then to approximate that result with T-7   Hogden suggests loading 15 % lighter.

But for normal people loading just to go shooting, forget about the 15%. And just load the gun.
Me. I pretty much use 30 gr no matter what powder I am using.
Loads for home defense get 35gr  and I fire several of them at a target, so I know where to aim for shot placement.
Most cases of self defense in the house is going to be 15 feet or less. Pinpoint accuracy isn't really needed just aim for center of mass.
and it isn't going to make much difference if you use, BP, Pyro, T7 or modern smokeless.  Impact velocity will be about the same.
Not going to matter much if that slug is going 750, 800, 850, 900, 950,or 1000 fps.  It's still going to do the job it was intended to do.
The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps.
General Alexander A. Vandergrift, USMC
to the Senate Naval Affairs Committee, 5 May 1946
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Marines Birthday  11/10/1775
USA birthday  7/4/1776

Offline Remmie58

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Re: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2015, 06:05:23 PM »
Thanks, guys. I've been considering a cartridge conversion cylinder, mostly for convenience. Smokeless cowboy ammo. seems such low velocity that I was wondering if the trade-off was worth it.
And, is it true that lower velocity, with large bore handguns, means better knock-down & less penetration; or, is that a myth? 
 

Online DD4lifeusmc

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Re: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2015, 07:20:59 PM »
Thanks, guys. I've been considering a cartridge conversion cylinder, mostly for convenience. Smokeless cowboy ammo. seems such low velocity that I was wondering if the trade-off was worth it.
And, is it true that lower velocity, with large bore handguns, means better knock-down & less penetration; or, is that a myth?
also depends on the projectile used.
The venerable old Browning   which was manufactured by Fabrique nationale, because American gun makers refused was a slow moving heavy slug. Not quite pure lead, as pure was too soft and would jam during loading.
The military converted to it, because of increased firepower and rate of fire and because it was considered a man stopper.
The slow moving slug would expand upon impact and pretty much stop him in his tracks.
Over the years rules of war have changed. New slugs must do minimal damage.  More humane    Yeah right!
Being shot is anything but humane.
Years ago I did a side by side comparision of a 44 mag and a Remmie with round ball.
Target was an open top steel 55 gal drum
The mag punched clear through both sides. small hole going in but abut 3 to 4 inches coming outm with jagged edges folded out ward.
The remmie punched through the first side. But only made a bulge on the back side. the bulge was about 1 inch or so deep, but around 4 to 6 inches in diameter.
The ball was completely flat about 50 cent in diameter and very jagged edges.
Personally I don't want to be shot with either.
The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps.
General Alexander A. Vandergrift, USMC
to the Senate Naval Affairs Committee, 5 May 1946
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Marines Birthday  11/10/1775
USA birthday  7/4/1776

Offline Hylander

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Re: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2015, 01:50:04 AM »
I shoot T-7 exclusively. Been using it since it first came out, rifle or revolver, FFF T-7 in both.
Out of my 8" Pietta 1858's I get just over 1,000 fps with 30gr. fff of T-7 with a 140gr. RB.
It just works better than real black for me and easier clean up, also no worry about rust setting in.
I have left my firearms for days after shooting and they still clean up quick with nothing but water and dish soap.


Offline Remmie58

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Re: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2015, 04:15:02 PM »
I shoot T-7 exclusively. Been using it since it first came out, rifle or revolver, FFF T-7 in both.
Out of my 8" Pietta 1858's I get just over 1,000 fps with 30gr. fff of T-7 with a 140gr. RB.
Yeah, I think I'll pass on the conversion. Maybe spend the $ on another '60 Army instead (sold my other 2). I live in bear country (although I do have a .357 mag., I often only carry the Rem.), & like having a full charge. Was chased by a bear once; so, never go out there anymore without a sidearm. Could try grinning it down, I s'pose, but can't run like I used to.  {_K 

Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2015, 09:28:46 PM »
Dear Friends, (And Rodwha!)
            I DON'T WANT to have to use a calculator to be sure I am 15% less than Whatever!  I HATE ARITHMATIC with a PURPLE PASSION!  With my two Powder flasks, and a Powder measure I can reload my guns just the WAY I WANT THEM, and get the results I WANT!  And Remmie, if a bear DID chase you, I can tell you he wasn't really interested in catching you! A Brown Bear can cover the first 50 yard from a standing start in THREE SECONDS!  If you doubt me, just ask the Alaska Game & Fish Commission!  I'm told that they quite frequently carry our the chewed remains of foolish People who got too close to the big bears!  I like warm weather, so I do not intend to explore the Alaskan Deep Woods. The bears are welcome to have them all to themselves!  I prefer not to have my hide pierced by long yellowing Fangs!  The ONLY person I have heard of to survive an encounter with a big bear, when armed with a Black Powder Revolver was James B Hickok!  He was probably carrying a dragoon .44, and fully charged, that gun would put a ball clean through a horse, AND nail the Indian hanging on the other side! Hickok survived because he was a very good physical Specimen of Manhood, was extremely fit, and he didn't panic. He drew a very sharp, and probably large, hunting knife,and succeeded in disemboweling the bear. He was found unconscious underneath the bear, and had to convalesc for some considerable time at Rock Springs,where he achieved further notoriety by killing David McAndles!  (This fight,(?) The evidence made it look very much like Murder!) Got Hickok a great deal of probably un-wanted publicity, and it was doubtless his true, and unquestionable virtuosity with his revolvers, that kept him alive as long as he lived! I have little doubt that when the bear attacked him, he put all six rounds into her. Being the crack shot that he was, he undoubtedly put them where he thought they would do the most good.  So the bear was probably dying on her feet when she got her paws on Hickok.
            A dragoon loaded with a .454 ball, and with a charge of 50 grains of Swiss powder will produce 1217 fps. With 40 grains of Swiss, behind a 200 grain Conical, it will get 1043 fps, and just to throw some of you Pureists a curve, the same conical, the 200 grain Lee bullet, with just 35 grains of Pyrodex P got 1066 fps!(Data from Cumpston & Bates, excellent book,
"Percussion Revolvers, A guide to their History, Performance, and Use."  I think more of you should have a copy of this book.
It will save a lot of un-necessary arguments concerning the velocities obtainable with certain powders!  The two authors took great pains to carry out their tests, in such a manner as to give reliable results! I most heartily recommend this book!
                                                                                     Johnnie Roper,Alias:Gunslinger9378.
Never make the mistake of thinking I will not shoot..........
Because it may be your very last mistake!

Offline Remmie58

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Re: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2015, 10:43:52 PM »
            I DON'T WANT to have to use a calculator to be sure I am 15% less than Whatever!
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Calculator not necessary; 40 gr. is fine in the steel-frame Rem.
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And Remmie, if a bear DID chase you, I can tell you he wasn't really interested in catching you! A Brown Bear can cover the first 50 yard from a standing start in THREE SECONDS!
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Fortunately, I was close enough to a place where I could run into (only 12 at the time).
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  The ONLY person I have heard of to survive an encounter with a big bear, when armed with a Black Powder Revolver was James B Hickok!  He was probably carrying a dragoon .44, and fully charged, that gun would put a ball clean through a horse, AND nail the Indian hanging on the other side! Hickok survived because he was a very good physical Specimen of Manhood, was extremely fit, and he didn't panic. He drew a very sharp, and probably large, hunting knife,and succeeded in disemboweling the bear. He was found unconscious underneath the bear, and had to convalesc for some considerable time at Rock Springs,where he achieved further notoriety by killing David McAndles!  (This fight,(?) The evidence made it look very much like Murder!) Got Hickok a great deal of probably un-wanted publicity, and it was doubtless his true, and unquestionable virtuosity with his revolvers, that kept him alive as long as he lived! I have little doubt that when the bear attacked him, he put all six rounds into her. Being the crack shot that he was, he undoubtedly put them where he thought they would do the most good.  So the bear was probably dying on her feet when she got her paws on Hickok.
            A dragoon loaded with a .454 ball, and with a charge of 50 grains of Swiss powder will produce 1217 fps. With 40 grains of Swiss, behind a 200 grain Conical, it will get 1043 fps,
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I would think that 40 gr. T7 in a Rem. would prob'ly be comparable enough to 50 gr. BP in a Dragoon. Never heard of Hickok carrying a Dragoon; but, maybe he did.
I used to do fast draw w/live ammo. (safe draw) with my old ASM '51 Navy .44 Sheriff. With that, I could get the shots off fast enough (w/slap-cock, not fanning), but could prob'ly never do it with the Rem's hammer type. But, like Davy Crockett, I have a lethal grin.  (?^   
If i get into real trouble, I'll use my raygun. Don't tell me I don't have a firm (imitation stag) grip on reality!  :-*
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 12:15:35 AM by Remmie58 »

Offline rodwha

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Re: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2015, 10:53:26 AM »
I have the revised book by Cumpston & Bates. Their results with Pyrodex aren't shared by many, not even Hogdgon, the maker of Pyrodex.

Poconoshooting.com has a fair amount of chronograph results. His findings are that it generally gave better performance over standard Goex, but wasn't as good as Triple 7. That's the majority of what I've seen from posted results. Maybe they just didn't hold their mouth right when loading?
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Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: FPS with roundball & 40 gr. Triple 7
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2015, 02:15:30 PM »
Dear Friends,
            I have among my "Favorites," the statistics published by Poconoshooting, and based on my own experience of shooting Black Powder Rifles AND Handguns, I would say that his statistics are about,"On the Money!"  He charges a quite large amount for a two hour lesson, and having watched his little video, where I believe he, "Instructs," on the "Proper(?)" way to load and shoot the Colt Walker, I would not go to HIM for practical Instruction! I would feel a lot safer being instructed by some of the more experienced Older Members of this Forum!  But, opinion's are like Butts!  Everybody has one!  I know what works for ME!  I shoot, Load, and Carry in a manner that is right for my particular circumstances. That some people will disagree with me, is as Certain as Night follows Day! I do notice that it is usually the younger members, whose opinions have been formed largely by what they have read, Whereas the Older Members, who have been shooting Black Powder guns for many years, do not say a great deal!  It must be realized that there are quite often many different ways of doing the same thing!  I load, shoot, and carry my guns in a way that my personal experience and preferences have taught me is the Best Way For ME!!!  I pass my experience on to others, in the sincere hope that some of my friends here, might say to themselves," That sounds like it might be better than what I do, I'll try it and find out!"  If it turns oout not to suit them, for their personal reasons, FINE! However, if they find that the method I advocate for doing a certain thing, DOES WORK FOR THEM, then that is fine too!  At least they were broadminded enough to TRY something different!!!
            Within the limitations of my age and health, I can still hit what I want to at reasonable combat ranges, with all three of my Sheriff's Models.  I still have to learn more about my new Hawken Style Rifle!  Being a little forgetful these days, I failed to realize that my target frame had broken at a weld, and was no longer useable! I tried the rifle out on a dead cactus, but made the mistake of not examining it before shooting!  When I DID go to look, I found the Dead Cactus had been well and truly riddled, with all manner of calibers, and it was not possible to see, which holes had been caused my my shots! "Oh Well!"  As for ,Triple Seven, I have not the slightest interest in the stuff!  It is NOT in my opinion, a True Black Powder Substitute!  That it makes the weapon used, easier to clean, matters not the least to me!  I shoot these weapons because they are almost exact replicas of the guns the Soldiers, and the Frontiersmen used when they forged this country out of the wilderness!  They were the Guns that Truly Won The West!  Forget about the Colt and Winchester of 1873!  The was was Won by then. May I remind you that the Golden Spike was driven at Promotory Point in Utah, IN THE YEAR 1869!!!!!  Once the east and west coasts were joined by rail, THE WEST WAS WON!  After the Lacotah killed off old Hardbacksides at the Greasy Grass,(Three cheers for Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse!) there were only the Nez Pearce, (Pronounced correctly, "Nay Persay!") and the Apache to "Pacify!"  (Who says Political Correctness is a, "New Thing"???)
            The noted author on the Indian Wars, Paul I Wellman, summed the situation perfectly, when in one of his books, he wrote. "His treatment of the American Indian, is something that every white American should wear around his neck, like a Millstone of Shame!"
            I have had an intense interest in this country's Western History since my Seventh Birthday!  In June this year, that will be 72 years!  Maybe, if I had been born here, and my grandparents had been massacred by the Blackfeet, I might feel differently about it? Quien Sabe?           
                                                                     Johnnie Roper,Alias:Gunslinger9378.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 02:27:24 PM by Gunslinger9378 »
Never make the mistake of thinking I will not shoot..........
Because it may be your very last mistake!