Author Topic: Remington .31 Pocket 1858  (Read 13593 times)

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Offline Captainkirk

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2015, 11:03:23 AM »
I'm watching for a nice one in steel. While the brass ones are sure shiny and not likely to be over-charged with cylinder capacity like other brassers, I love the look of the blued-steel ones. Just not the retail price.

What price range are you looking at for a steel frame?
I'd like to pay less than two hundred.
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Offline PaleHawkDown

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2015, 12:18:49 PM »
Mike Beliveau's testing of the Ruger Old Army with Triple 7 and a 255 grn Kaido bullet (modified Lee .45 Colt bullet) got 920 fps for 479 ft/lbs using 25 grns of 3F powder which he gave ~15% powder reduction and minimal compression thinking these were safety issues (they aren't).

That load would likely fit as a max charge in a Remington '58, but it does show that these are capable of more power than many realize, and if it can do that in a shorter cylinder it can do much more in a Dragoon or Walker, or the deeper ClassicBallistix cylinders for the ROA.


Que?

Offline Hewy

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2015, 03:04:12 PM »
Darn it Guys! Now you are making me want one of these.  .))
Aren'tcha happy I started another conversation about the 1863 Pocket. )L$
Me also want one.
Hewy
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Offline Hewy

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2015, 03:08:02 PM »
We have them in stock on our site if you need one.
pm just shot ya......
Hewy
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Offline rodwha

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2015, 03:26:40 PM »
My response was concerning this:

"The best published results I've seen for a Walker, or a .44 Remmie stuffed to the gills are about 470-485 ft lbs.)"
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Offline CrazyOldHermit

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2015, 11:33:45 PM »
My response was concerning this:

"The best published results I've seen for a Walker, or a .44 Remmie stuffed to the gills are about 470-485 ft lbs.)"

Yep- and then you cited another roughly 480 ft lb  result, which kinda proves my point, which was NOT that cap and ball revolvers can't be effective, but rather that RELATIVE to the .41 Magnum I personally carry, they're "mouse farts". If I wanted to move away from the 210 grain bullets I prefer (and that my sights are adjusted for), I can buy rounds that out of my 6 1/2 inch Blackhawk exceed 1000 ft lbs of muzzle energy. And, relative to some of the really BIG revolvers out there these days, my old .41 Magnum isn't so impressive.

For those who need it spelled out - there are those who will disparage the 1863 Remington as a useless little toy. Thump your chests all you want about how much power you can get out of a "real" cap and ball gun, like a Walker or .44 Remmie,  but realize that compared to a MODERN  larger single action revolver of about the same size and weight, with even modest rounds for the caliber, those "manly" loads aren't all that impressive. Some folks just want to have a little fun, or own a link to history, or shoot a gun that looks different or cool, without regard to "practicality", and there's no need to go on and on about "real" BP revolvers. If you don't want a little .31 - don't buy one.

And please don't forget - the gun that killed Abraham Lincoln was a little single shot "mouse fart" Deringer with a total chamber and barrel length about the same as a .44 Remmie cylinder. It did the job. I imagine that, used as intended, at close range, the little 1863 Remington accounted for a headstone or two in its time. (I won't even begin to guess how many people in history were killed by ARROWS that have less kinetic energy than a modern .22)
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Offline G Dog

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2015, 12:43:57 AM »
Sure COH, a lethal piece.  Probably at its best across a card table and similar circumstances.  I think they are hansom little suckers.  Colt had great success with their Pocket '49, sold a load of em.  The old timers seemed to have thought .31 was good for something.

Booth's single shot was a .41  -- that and a hunting knife was all he brought.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 12:49:36 AM by G Dog »
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2015, 07:54:41 AM »
Hi, here are my Remington mouse BP guns:



The diminutive size is a manufacturing marvel for a firearm. They are fun to handle and even more fun to shoot. Equipped with a conversion cylinder the steel framed 1863 Remington can shoot .32 S&W. Lest you think them useless, a .32 S&W started WW1. The mouse guns were favored as carry often shoot little guns back in the mid 1800s. Even a .22 was almost always fatal if a person was shot in the gut. The intimidation factor was all that was required back then.

BTW, while there were only a few brass framed 1863 Remingtons made,  it is historically correct.

Yes, Colt also produced mouse guns, but not as small as the Remington, see:



While it hasn't happened yet on this thread, stay tuned for a 5 page dissertation by our brother Johnnie Roper on why mouse guns are useless. His posts are always fun.

Regards,
Richard
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Offline rodwha

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2015, 08:18:16 AM »
Through a Remington "1858" using a more energetic powder, and with a Kaido bullet it will travel nose to tail through an adult hog. More velocity/energy wouldn't have killed it any more or traveled any further through it. Seems plenty...

But the point was that if a Remington "1858" or ROA can beat 500 ft/lbs a Dragoon or Walker could do that much more, and may very well reach your target load's energy levels. I've seen claims, though I'm not inclined to believe them, that a ROA has been clocked with ~700 ft/lbs, though maybe it was with the ClassicBallistix cylinder which gives a capacity about that of a Colt Dragoon.
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Offline PaleHawkDown

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2015, 09:21:00 AM »
I'm watching for a nice one in steel. While the brass ones are sure shiny and not likely to be over-charged with cylinder capacity like other brassers, I love the look of the blued-steel ones. Just not the retail price.

What price range are you looking at for a steel frame?
I'd like to pay less than two hundred.

Wow, distributer price for one with a steel frame is more than $200. Heck, the used blue book dealer value is higher than that.

Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2015, 01:08:11 PM »
Dear Friends,
            I had two of the brass framed Mouse Guns at one time. I spent a whole morning fooling with them, and Richard is correct! I think them UTTERLY USELESS!  Richard seems obsessed with the fact that Arch Due Ferdinand was assassinated with a .32 weapon!  That doesn't prove a thing. He was just a very un-lucky Arch Duke!  In Kenya, a small boy, returning from a walk with his Father, saw that a full grown male lion was lying sedately on the Porch of their house. The boy aimed quickly with his .22 rifle, fired, and killed the lion instantly with one shot.  It just so happened that the Big Cat had it's head turned just at the correct angle, and the diminutive bullet hit the poor animal in the eye, and passed through to the brain.  A Fluke Shot! Many years ago in Britain, a man was accidentally killed with a .177 Air Rifle, while walking his dog!
            Does any of the foregoing make any of you want to place a .177 air pistol beside the bed, to repell any Home Invaders, who might disturb your peaceful rest tonight?
            To all those of you who have paid good money for these guns, I will give the same advice that the Late , Great Jeff
Cooper, gave to a female Federal Agent, when she asked his opinion of the usefullness of the .25 Auto. Mr. Cooper told her:
"Carry one by all means, if it makes you feel better. However, DO NOT SHOOT IT AT ANYONE! For you may hit them, and this may make them very angry, and they might do you serious harm!
            The two I had, I threw in a drawer, after trying to hit things with them all of one morning! I never once even tried to load either of them again!. You will be lucky to hit a Barn with one, unless you are INSIDE the barn, and someone has been kind enough to close the door! I finally GAVE THEM AWAY!  So that the occasional sight of them, would not make me angry, by reminding me of how stupid I had been, to spend money on them in the first place!!!!!  There is ONE point in which they DO SHINE! The MAXIMUM charge that the Puny Chambers will take is 12.5 Grains! So there is NO WAY, you are EVER going to stretch THAT Brass Frame.  At only TEN YARDS, Mike Cumpston, was not able to get a smaller group than THREE INCHES! This was eight inches above, and two inches left of the point of Aim!
            A few days ago someone was bold enough to say they found their Remington Mouse Gun had fair accuracy!  Another member, (It may have been Hawg?) responded succinctly with, "I can't hit Shit with mine!"  A fitting Epitaph for this useless piece of Micro-Ordinance!
                                                                                     Johnnie Roper,Alias:Gunslinger9378.
PS: Re:Walker Load: The guy from Poconoshooting, has a load for the walker as follows  210 grain Conical, 66 grains Pyrodex P, MV: 1238, ME:714.8526
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 01:53:02 PM by Gunslinger9378 »
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2015, 01:28:50 PM »
Hi Johnnie, come on, I was expecting at least 5 pages of reasons that people are idiots for owning a mouse gun.  )L$ (?^ ->i

I know I showed you this before, a target shot from 7yds using a mouse gun:


 BTW, the hole in the eight ring was my first shot. The other 4 were after making a kentucky windage adjustment. Maybe the problems you had with the mouse guns is that you never learned to shoot it?

There is nothing more enjoyable than fondling a mouse gun, darn close to having sex.  ;) ;) ;)

Other than you, I don't know of anyone else that regretted buying a mouse BP revolver.

BTW, the killing of Franz Ferdinand's wife with a 32 was also a fluke?  {:( {:( {:(

Regards,
Richard

« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 01:39:42 PM by ssb73q »
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Offline G Dog

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2015, 02:08:06 PM »
We like what you like too Johnnie.  How many guys here have .44 Remington?  Nearly all do and in most cases they have a bunch.  Like you I only have three Remingtons which puts us, you and  I,  on the low end.  But anyway, the point here is that you do a lot of preaching to the choir,  we already believe.

As to non-Remington and non .44 guns your horizon seems very limited.  Talk about a closed mind and a constricted horizon, geez!  You have three revolvers of the same type, maker and design, that’s it.  Pretty limited.  I can understand personal preferences, we all have those.  But why be so down on everything that is not what you are up on?  You should be happy for the guys being able to shoot whatever they like and want to shoot  and not always be doggin’ on em for it. 

Have you ever shot a Rem .36?  What did you think?  Ever shot a ’51 Navy, a ‘61?  Anything positive to say?  We know all too well what you think of 1860 Colts so I won’t even go there.

We all have limitations and some of mine are not being able to understand how anyone would not enjoy shooting a Rem .31, or hating Colts, or loading up by pounding with an effin ‘great bloody mallet’ … just to name a few.

At least we agree that Remington .44 is pretty damn cool.   I still say:  ‘Poor Johnnie, no Colts.’ 


***        Ssb – Good pics of those little hoehouse .31's and cart .32 ... I like em.


« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 02:12:11 PM by G Dog »
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Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2015, 03:08:14 PM »
Dear Richard,
            I have the feeling that that group, was shot with one of your Colt Style Mouse guns!  You have extolled their accuracy before on the Forum!  Now let us see you produce a similar group with the Remington Mouse Gun!!!  If you get a good one, I'll bet it will take you nearly all day to do it! I don't like Colt guns, because only with skilled engineering work, done on them,(Like the little pins driven into the top of the frame, just in front of where the hammer will strike, and the notch cut into the hammer, to allow the rest of the hammer to hit the cap. (As demonstrated in, "Cap 'n Balls Video.") is it possible to get a semblance of RELIABILITY with that design! Whereas a Remington, straight out of the box, will function perfectly, when prepared and loaded by someone who knows what they are doing! (Like Myself!!!) If you are ever in Arizona, come visit, and I'll take you out to my private 93,000 acre range,(LOL) and you can choose any of my three Sheriff's Models, and select at random ANY ONE of my loaded Cylinders, insert it into any of the three revolvers, and I'll guaran-Damn-Tee, all six rounds will fire with full power!  For I clean,load, prepare, and maintain, my guns in such a way, that I KNOW that EACH and EVERY time I press the trigger, I WILL get a full power shot!
            I clean, prepare,and load my guns, to get ABSOLUTE RELIABILITY! Nothing less will satisfy me! For Murphy's Law being what it is, if I DID have a Squib or Dud load, it would be sure to happen, when I REALLY NEEDED TO HAVE THE GUN GO OFF!!!
            I am WELL AWARE, that the chances of my ever having to defend myself, or another person, with Deadly Force, with DeadlyForce, is very remote.  I really hope it never happens, but if it DID, and my weapon failed to function, what a FOOL I would look, after all I have said on this Forum! 
                                                                                     Johnnie Roper,Alias:Gunslinger9378.
Never make the mistake of thinking I will not shoot..........
Because it may be your very last mistake!

Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: Remington .31 Pocket 1858
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2015, 04:08:12 PM »
Dear G-Dog,
            I guess it is just my personality!  As a child, playing with my little friends, with VERY cheap cap Pistols, if mine broke, I'd throw it in the trash!  The others if theirs broke, would carry on, saying, "Bang, Bang." I would not do that. Just the way my mind works I guess!
            I'm the same with the Remmies!  One of our members on here has a by-Line that says, "Beware the Man with One Gun...For he usually knows how to use it."  Well I have three guns that are very similar indeed!  I have regulated the sights so that they almost have an identical point of aim, so that should the highly unlikely event of my getting "Bailed Up," (Australian expression) by a bunch of evildoers, I can switch from one to another with little of no adjustments needed! Physical or Mental!
I'm the same with my car,  Should someone bump into my mirror, and knock it out of alignment while I am in a store, as soon as I see it is out of Whack, I have to fiddle with it until I get it back to precisely where it was before the person walked into it, and moved it! My ex-wife used to say I was a FOF! (Fussy Old Fart!)  And described my behaviour on such occasions as,"Being "Foffy!"  I confess I WOULD like to have an Eight Inch Remington, Preferably TWO of them.  I DO miss Betsy & Clementine.  Betsy was absolutely Spot ON for accuracy!  It was Betsy I pulled off the three shots at over a 140 yards out in the desert that time. The Car Door, (That was real easy!) then the coffee can and the Milk Jug! The two Elders I was with, STILL talk about it I'm told!  I am in a different ward now, so hardly ever see them these days!
            I will have to ask for your indulgence! In eighteen months I will be eighty years of age! (If I last that long?) and I have been fascinated with guns, since I became aware of what was going on about me! (Age 3.5 to 4 I'd  guess?) The war was on, and my Hero's were the Fighter Pilots who flew in the battle of Britain. I got hold of a REAL gun when I was about Eight. A boyfriend of my Sister let me have it.  I think it was most likely a .380. (Nine mm Corto.) of Italian make!  It was jammed solid, (Maybe rusted?) but it looked good in the "Cops & Robbers," games we used to play!  One day it was stolen from my desk at school. Happened during Playtime. When I returned to my seat it was gone. I recall I was REALLY P.O.'d about that!
            I did have another Colt Pistol. An Original, but it had different serial numbers on the different parts!  It was a LITTLE bit better that that Thrice Accursed 1960 Army, but STILL suffered form the "CapsRollingBackIintoTheWorks," Syndrome!  I did OCCASIONALLY get all six rounds off without a jam, but not very often!!! There was NO-WAY iy could ever be called 100% Reliable!  As you will by now have guessed, I am a stickler for Reliability!!!!!  I may be getting near the end of my life here, but I'm having a middling good time, and have no desire to go before The Lord hooks his fingers into my collar, and takes me up there!  Some of the madcap things I have done in my life, I'm really surprised I am still here! Oh Well, Our's is not to reason why..........
            I guess one of the reasons I get so upset at people wasting(?)good money on the Remington Mouse Gun, is that my monthly incomings are about $400 below the Poverty Level, and I hate to think of someone wasting money on a gun that has no real practical use! Thankfully, I am now so old, I eat very little!  One hardboiled egg and a Biscuit for breakfast, No lunch, and a small evening meal when Ana comes i from work at about 6 PM! I have a small stash of "MIlky Way." candy bars in the Fridge, so If I DO get a bit Peckish, I can go get one of those! I guess I have one about every three or four days! I am not
Addicted to them I'm happy to say!
            I hope you continue to enjoy your Colts. Just make sure you have a hot loaded Remington .44 with you AT ALL TIMES! For Colts, and Murphy's Law being what they are, when the Hungry or Pissed Off Cougar come into view, the Colt may louse up, but the Remington WON'T!
                                                                                     Johnnie Roper,Alias:GUnslinger9378.
Never make the mistake of thinking I will not shoot..........
Because it may be your very last mistake!