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Author Topic: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!  (Read 15076 times)

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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2015, 11:23:28 PM »
Oakey doakey then.  There was a very loose consensus that said Goex was the "dirtiest" of the currently available powders, and so I took that challenge.

I cast up around 200 bullets last week and rolled up 100 cartridges using 30 grains Goex 3F, a lube cookie of Gatofeo #1 about an eighth inch thick, and a Lee 200 grain bullet, rolled in perm paper and twisted over the bullet to hold it all together.

This evening I fired over 100 of those cartridges.  I took the photo of the muzzle, showing the "lube star", at around the fifty round count.  It looked about the same after 100 so I didn't take another photo.

I blew through the barrel and across the cylinder face after every six shots, but other than that I did nothing to clean or lube the gun.  What was in the loads and in my breath did all the maintenance.  The cylinder still turns freely, and I bet that  other than the obvious soot all over the gun and a little bit of sooty grease, I could convince you by the way the cylinder turns that it is a clean gun, after more than 100 shots without wiping or cleaning of any kind.

The last six rounds (shots number 97 thru 102) were fired on paper at 25 yards, standing, using the rail of my pickup bed as a rest.  The six shot group, measured using a dial caliper, comes to about 3.560", which is about as good as this revolver ever does.  I call it a 3.5" to 4" shooter.  It's a Pietta Remington NMA with the standard, long twist, 8" barrel and my adjustable trigger job, set just the way I like it.

Throughout the test I had exactly one cap jam (Johnnie) and zero misfires or hang fires.  I use Remington number ten caps on Treso nipples.

Understand that after several cylinders full, the cylinder DOES get harder to turn.  Blow the gun down though, as I say it, and the cylinder frees up like magic, in seconds.  Someone needs to tell the folks at Track of the Wolf about this, because they continue to give their caveat, on every BP revolver they list for sale, that you'll need to clean it after twelve or eighteen shots.  Pish posh, poppycock, and nonsense.  Balderdash too.

I maintain that a person could shoot from sunup to sundown, hundreds and hundreds of shots, and the gun wouldn't get significantly dirtier, less accurate or harder to operate than it was after the 100 shots.  I'll let someone else prove it though-- The 100 shots from a percussion gun on a nice evening is about enough for me.

So there you have it.  If Goex is dirty, it isn't nearly dirty enough that you can't shoot all day with it with no cleaning or even wiping the cylinder pin.

If it was a myth that Goex is "too dirty", that myth is hereby BUSTED!

NEXT!

What's it going to be?  I've already done this with Pyrodex pellets.  Do I need to do it with loose Pyrodex P, or has the point been made?  Done anyone believe there is a currently available powder too dirty to pass this test?

Now if you'll excuse me I have a gun to clean.

Oh by the way; the paper for the cartridge cases is untreated, i.e. no nitrating.  It's used as it comes out of the box.  Cost is a small fraction of a penny per round.  There is currently a very, very ugly accumulation of paper bits in the bottoms of all the chambers.  Ask me if I think it matters.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 06:11:53 PM by Omnivore »

Offline SourMashII

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2015, 11:26:35 PM »
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Content.aspx?PAGE=Black%20Powder

Schuetzen 3f,

I find it to be fairly fouling. But I'm kinda new at this.
Soaking this up like a Parched sponge.

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2015, 02:37:11 AM »
The final part of the test is to show the bore.  In the first photo is the bore, completely untouched after 102 shots.  The rifling is mostly clear, with just a little carbon and grease, mixed together, from the last shot.  The accuracy test at the end showed the same thing, if you think about it, but here is the supporting evidence.

The second photo shows the bore after a single, DRY patch was pushed through, one direction, once.  The bore almost completely clean.

The third photo shows that first patch.  It's sooty, of course, and a little greasy from the lube, mostly all from the last shot, as any previous fouling is pushed out with each successive shot.

THAT is exactly how it's supposed to work.  I'm not saying my way is the only way (and it's not really my way anyway, but an amalgam of several other people's ways) but it is a way.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 06:10:29 PM by Omnivore »

Offline rodwha

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2015, 06:35:17 AM »
Nicely done!
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2015, 09:58:51 AM »
Hi Omnivore, thank you for doing the test. I'm very impressed with your results, I would have never believed it could be done.

I'm delighted that you were able to share your testing results with us. I learned something new. Job well done!!  {?| {?| {?|

Regards,
Richard
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2015, 10:03:48 AM »
Hi moderators, I suggest that this thread be made a sticky.

Regards,
Richard
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Offline Mad Dog Stafford

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2015, 01:59:56 PM »
Richard, your wish will come true!  ;)
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Offline G Dog

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2015, 02:01:48 PM »
I agree with ssb's suggestion regarding 'sticky status'  for Omnivore's great ongoing testing and it's results.

Great work Omnivore!  Thanks for putting in the time and effort. It is appreciated. 
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2015, 03:43:37 PM »
Thank YOU.  I appreciate Y'all's kind words, but since I did it for fun, no thanks are necessary.  I would like to see the word spread though, whenever someone says they're having fouling problems or that this or that powder is "too dirty".  The whole thread could be distilled to the following;

If fouling accumulates in your gun, you can change your loading and gun handling practices to prevent it.  Using enough (and the right kind) of lube UNDER the ball or bullet, and blowing breath over and through the gun after every cylinder full, are two ways (combined) to accomplish that.  I would add that using ONLY little bit of lube under the bullet (as one time I did this with a very thin GF1 lube cookie - that was with Old Eynsfor powder, though I don't believe it would have mattered) can result in horrible fouling and bore restriction to the point of extruding the bullet, destroying accuracy, packing lead in with the fouling in the bore, and very difficult cleaning afterward.  If that happens, use more lube and all will be well.  For every powder and loading, there is the right amount and kind of lube.  Gatofeo #1 is pretty good lube, and unless it melts, it won’t contaminate the powder over time.

That’s about it.  That’s one small paragraph, so a person need not read the whole thread unless there’s the desire to spend some time reading.

Some have been reporting using no lube or wads at all, "shooting dry" so to speak, blowing through the gun as I've described after every six, and having decent results.  That is not something I have tried.  However, I've yet to see a report of getting off 100 shots (dry, no wad) with an accuracy test and bore inspection at the end, so for now I'll assume that the jury is still out on that one.  Maybe someone can confirm or deny here, based on their experiences.

I should add that, after that last shooting session yesterday evening, after the gun sat for several hours in the holster inside the house, the cylinder DID become pretty stiff.  Not too stiff to function, but stiff, and the cylinder pin was difficult to pull.  Not so difficult that I needed a tool or some special technique, but difficult.

The point being; there's a time window there.  So my assertion that you could shoot all day, from, sunup to sundown, hundreds of shots, is amended with the following caveat-- If you take a very long break, your gun may be pretty stiff afterwards.  So you may need to wipe the cylinder pin, not based on round count, but on time since your last shot.  In my test run I never stopped for more than a few minutes.  Temperature and humidity more than likely play a major role in this also.

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2015, 05:11:16 PM »
Another point that should be made here is that, although I used paper cartridges in this test, you can of course get the much same results loading with loose powder;
Powder, lube cookie, bullet
You won't end up with the bits of paper in the chambers either, though as I pointed out there doesn't seem to be a downside to that so far.

A variation would be;
Powder, thin card, lube cookie, bullet (keeps lube from contacting powder)

Or, because the lube sort of sticks to the base of the bullet and is carried along, sometimes with fizzling granules of powder, another load would be;
Powder, cookie, card, bullet.

And if you want to be really OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) about it;
Powder, card, cookie, card, bullet (the “Oreo cookie”, with “cream filling”)

These are variations of loads I've seen mentioned with regard to using black powder in metal cartridges.

A very generous lube groove might accomplish much the same results, without the cookie.  This is alluded to in the description of the commercially offered "Big Lube" bullets.

My inspiration for this goes back several years, to John Fuhring's articles on "Clean Loading" and on "Managing black powder fouling by proper loading technique";
http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps3.html
To give credit where credit is due then, I believe Fuhring would deserve the thanks.

You will note that much of what I said here is variation and reiteration of what Fuhring said years ago.  Though he was not apparently aware of GF1 (Gatofeo #1 lube) at the time, he did come up with some similar concoctions.  You'll also note that he discounts the lube groove idea for the most part, preferring under-the-bullet lube for what he termed "fouling mitigation" (a term I've used here more than once before).

This thread also goes hand in hand with my thread "Cartridge Box (speaking of field carry)" in the Accoutrements section, as it is part of being able to carry a relatively large number of pre-made cartridges on the person, with nothing but a cartridge belt box, the pistol and a capper, and successfully fire all rounds without hassle or encumbrances;
 http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=8337.0

Offline Mad Dog Stafford

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2015, 10:26:08 AM »
BTT
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Offline Fingers McGee

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2015, 11:23:41 AM »
Fingers, are Lidu and Dragon still around?  I'm unfamiliar with them.  Cleaner burning than Swiss would be dang clean.

Unfortunately, they have not been available as sporting powder for a number of years.  I believe Lidu is still used in the fire works industry.
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Offline snake-eyes

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2015, 04:23:35 PM »
Old post I know.....Hard for me to answer the initial question because with very few
exceptions I have never used anything but 3fff Goex. To me....it is what it is and I will
live with it. :9)
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Offline Tom-ADC

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2015, 04:51:19 PM »
I used Goex for everything up until a couple of years ago when I started using Swiss in my BP 45-70 loads I really like it much cleaner than the Goex I was using in them.
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Offline snake-eyes

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Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2015, 05:09:42 PM »
Tom,
      Actually the reason I stay with Goex is because it is readily available thru my
gun club at a reasonable price.To switch to anything other would require,at least for
me,mail order and I am not willing to pay the Haz-Mat fees. I guess I am just  :9) poor
and cheap. :'(
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