Author Topic: Swiss Powder Test  (Read 8252 times)

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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2015, 12:19:20 PM »
Standard deviation for a sample size of six shots is a throwaway number.  For a meaningful SD you'll want a minimum of 20 shots.  Some chronographs won't even give you a SD for a sample size of less than ten, and that is still going to be a highly suspect number.

Another problem with getting meaningful data is powder fouling.  Even in a six shot string, there may be enough fouling of the bore between shot number one and snot number six to change the results.  So does your twenty shot standard deviation assume no cleaning?  Or does your 20 shot SD figure assume every shot is taken from a cold, clean bore?  Either one could be useful, but they will be very different, so you want to know which data you're interested in.

Or, if you're using a load that does not result in fouling accumulation, then you have two states that you might test.  One is the cold, clean nor, and one is the fouled bore.  You can test the cold, clean bore only by cleaning the gun after every shot.  You test the fouled bore by taking a fouling shot and throwing out its velocity from the test string.

A hunter, who takes his important shots from a cold clean bore, will want his data all taken from cold clean bore shots, which means cleaning before each and every shot in the string.

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2015, 01:55:11 PM »
Hi Omnivore, statistics suggests that 6 samples provides a confidence of 75%. That's good enough for me.

Regards,
Richard
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Offline G Dog

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2015, 02:11:02 PM »
Here’s a question:  If “bullet energy … is almost linear with loading weight“  why “wouldn't (you) expect velocity to be linear with powder weight”?

Is it correct to assume here that “loading weight” and “powder weight” are synonymous terms? 

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Offline ssb73q

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2015, 02:17:57 PM »
Hi G Dog, bullet energy goes as 1/2 MV^2.  That's not linear, but quadratic.

Regards,
Richard
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Offline G Dog

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2015, 02:51:30 PM »
OK, good then.  Thanks.  I was confusing/conflating ‘linear’ with the notion of powder charge level and velocity (and hence ‘energy’) as being ‘directly proportional’, which I suppose they are but that’s not the same thing as ‘linear’. 

I’m catchin’ on.  I like ballistics, this is good stuff.
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Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2015, 07:22:27 PM »
Dear Friends,
            Yawl air gittin far to Mathematical for this Old Phart!  I only add, subtract, divide & Multiply! I don't even Divide & Conquer!!  I know enuff to know that if the guns kicks hard, and the recoil takes it way over my head, then in all likelihood it's gonna really hurt the feller I shoot with it! Mebbe even kill the Son-uva B---h??? Ackchully, I don't even do the first four lessen I have one of them Kalkoolaters!  But I do like the damage my Pyro Pellet load does to fone books and the like!  From what Ah've seen, a man wold be hard put toit to walk at all after  being hit with one of my pellet loads! Reckon he'd be all tore up inside! It seems kinda sad to have to hurt a guy that much.  Still iffen he means me harm, then I gess One has to fiht fire with fire!  Sure do dread it!
                                                                                                      Johnnie Roper;Alias:Gunslinger9378.
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Offline M9Powell

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2015, 07:33:57 PM »
Hi G Dog, bullet energy goes as 1/2 MV^2.  That's not linear, but quadratic.

Regards,
Richard

 Yep, velocity kills. There are those that say Ahh an extra hundred FPS ain't gonna make much difference. If that were true we wouldn't need bullet launchers at all. Just carry a pocket full of bullets and throw em.

Offline M9Powell

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2015, 07:40:54 PM »
Dear Friends,
            Yawl air gittin far to Mathematical for this Old Phart!  I only add, subtract, divide & Multiply! I don't even Divide & Conquer!!  I know enuff to know that if the guns kicks hard, and the recoil takes it way over my head, then in all likelihood it's gonna really hurt the feller I shoot with it! Mebbe even kill the Son-uva B---h??? Ackchully, I don't even do the first four lessen I have one of them Kalkoolaters!  But I do like the damage my Pyro Pellet load does to fone books and the like!  From what Ah've seen, a man wold be hard put toit to walk at all after  being hit with one of my pellet loads! Reckon he'd be all tore up inside! It seems kinda sad to have to hurt a guy that much.  Still iffen he means me harm, then I gess One has to fiht fire with fire!  Sure do dread it!
                                                                                                      Johnnie Roper;Alias:Gunslinger9378.

 You're exactly right Johnnie. Equal & opposite reactions.  As far as your pistol recoiling over your head goes though, that has more to do with your stance & grip than anything. I've seen pics of you shooting & have trained thousands. But there is that old saying " You can't teach an ole Dawg new tricks". Good to have you back.  (T^

Offline Hawg

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2015, 12:48:09 PM »
I had a video of my step daughter shooting my model P with full 44-40 Pyrodex loads when she was 13. You couldn't see it in the vid but if you watched it frame by frame it went vertical over her head. I lost the vid when my desktop crashed. I snipped this one after it came back down and she was getting ready to cock the hammer but you couldn't tell her left hand ever came off the gun.

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Offline snake-eyes

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2015, 01:05:23 PM »
If that were true we wouldn't need bullet launchers at all. Just carry a pocket full of bullets and throw em.

M9P,
        {_K Oh,I hope not......As bad as I shoot,my accuracy throwing is even worse! (?^
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Offline old fogey

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2016, 05:14:05 PM »
Actually, I wouldn't mind someone with a chrony giving Johnny's loads a run through a buffalo (either a Colt or Remmy, don't think the type of gun would matter at all,) just for the sake of everyone's curiosity (been quite a few postings about that, actually, over time).
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 06:54:45 PM by old fogey »

Offline rea98d

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2016, 05:30:05 PM »
Someone chrono'd Johnnie's preferred load with a standard Remmie.  I can't remember the exact number, but it was well over 900 fps.  Testing it in a 12" barrel would be interesting, but most 12" Remmies are brass frame guns, and probably wouldn't hold up well to the "Medical Examiner's Special." :)

Offline Prospector

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2016, 06:12:25 PM »
It was Richard himself, ssb73q , who chronographed Jonnie's loads.   The results are  posted on this forum somewhere.   If I recall, they were going just under 950 FPS shot using a Pietta Remington NMA with a 5.5 inch barrel.   It seems like it was either  946 or 947 FPS.    That is really good for a 5.5 inch barrel.  I cannot remember if Richard tested them through an 8" barrel or not.  Maybe Richard or someone else will chime in here an post a link to that thread.

Offline old fogey

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2016, 07:10:43 PM »
rea98d, yeah most buffalos sold are the brass framed variety (guess most folks didn't want to spend the few extra bucks to get a steel-framed one [mine's a stainless steel one],) and now I think that Old South is about the only place you can get 'em (got mine for @ $415 few years ago, cost more now)!
                                                                                                                       Kinda weird, being's how the only thing different is the barrel length (being's how Pietta's charging so much more for the buffalo, shouldn't they almost be giving away the 5 1/2" ones, ha ha)! I was thinking of getting a blued one (different, faster twist rate according to the folk's who would' know'd, better fer conicals - ss buff is basically set up for round ball). Don't think it'd matter which one as far as velocity goes (could be wrong - be know'd ta be before, probably will be agin too)!

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Swiss Powder Test
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2017, 06:50:35 AM »
Hi, I conducted velocity tests of 3f Swiss Powder using a Pietta 8" barrel 1858 Remington. Six cylinders were loaded with different weights of Swiss Black Powder and 141gr Hornady swaged ball. Powder weights (not volume) of 10,15,20,25,30, and 35grs were tested. Each cylinder was loaded with Swiss powder, followed by a 0.030" thick .45 Colt fiber wad, followed by a 1/8" thick Sagebrush lubed wad, followed by the 141gr Hornady 0.454 ball. The ball, wads and powder were compressed using the Tower of Power loading stand. No filler was used. A Chrony chronograph was used to measure velocity. CCI #10 caps were used. Each cylinder (six shots) were fired and the muzzle velocity measured. The results:

10gr 528.33 fps   25.90 SD   87.38 f-lb
15gr 679.63 fps   15.56 SD   144.58 f-lb
20gr 806.27 fps   17.06 SD   203.48 f-lb
25gr 909.46 fps   11.33 SD   258.90 f-lb
30gr 997.98 fps   18.91 SD   311.76 f-lb
35gr 1076.2 fps   6.83 SD    362.54 f-lb

Some things to note: The 35gr loading was a maximum load, the ball was almost flush with the face of the cylinder. The ball energy at maximum load is consistent with a 230gr .45 ACP. All the weights given are actual powder weight measured by an accurate electronic reloading scale. The reason I used actual weight instead of volume is for weight accuracy for the low weight charges. You can convert the weight to volume if you choose by using the actual weight of Swiss thrown by a 30gr volume measure:
Swiss Black Powder 3F - 24.4gr
 
Of special interest to me was the efficiency of Swiss powder with different loadings. I created a chart of muzzle energy as a function of powder weight, see:



Isn't that beautiful, the muzzle energy is almost linearly directly proportional to the powder weight. It should be noted that from previous velocity testing the new GOEX Olde Eynsford will perform almost identical to Swiss black powder, weight for weight.

I hope you find these results useful.  {L* {L* {L*

Regards,
Richard

Hi, the image of the spreadsheet chart that was originally hosted in Photobucket has been replaced. That graph is important to the discussion of powder efficiency.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!