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Offline West Texan

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"replica vs duplicate vs copy
« on: April 18, 2015, 10:01:14 AM »
I really like my Pietta 1858 revolvers but they are not NMA Remington duplicates or copy. They certainly are Remingtons. I don't like the word replica unless it refers to an inert plastic or cast wall hanger "copy" of an object.   _l  The Pietta 1858 is to the Remington NMA as the Springfield 03 is to the Mauser.  my rant for the day as i sit here with my Pietta 1858 sheriff model on the desk beside me.

Online Mad Dog Stafford

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2015, 10:52:32 AM »
I like my Pietta Guns.  {?|
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Offline Frizzen

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2015, 01:58:20 PM »
I like my Euroarms

Offline Pustic

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2015, 02:03:34 PM »
I like my Pietta and Uberti guns.  :)
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Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2015, 02:32:12 PM »
Dear West Texan,
            The word replica or the word copy may truthfully be assigned to our Italian Made Relica's of the Miss-Named 1858 Revolvers.  One may state,"Firing Replica's if one wishes to be explicit, but they are in fact Firing, or Shootable replicas of the New Model Army Revolver of 1863!  The date 1858, was stamped under the barrels of the very early Remington original Revolvers, but this date was the Patent Date of the method of securing the base pin, by securing the loading lever to the underside of the barrel, and by so doing, preventing the base pin from sliding forward!  By all means use whatever words you choose to describe your Italian Made replicas of the 1863 Remington New Model Army Revolver!  This is a right you have under the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. However a perusal of Websters Dictionary, will show you that copy is, (Among many definitions , "said to be,") "An individual example of an original work or device, Something to be imitated!" Also the word Replica:To Copy, Repeat, Duplicate, a close reproduction of an original, would seem to strongly indicate that whether you like the words or not, your Remington Percussion Revolver IS a COPY or a DUPLICATE of the Original Remington Revolver of 1863.  You state, "They certainly are Remingtons."  In this you are WRONG! They in fact are Piettas, Uberti's ASM's or some other maker who does, or has, made Replicas' or Copies or Duplicates of the original Remington New Model Army Revolver of 1863, in .44 caliber!
                                                                                     Johnnie Roper,Alias:Gunslinger9378.
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Offline West Texan

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2015, 02:53:15 PM »
Gunslinger,
    Very logical and reasonable discussion. You are correct only a remington is a Remington.  A Pietta is a Pietta.
West

Offline Omnivore

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2015, 02:57:06 PM »
Johnnie is correct of course, regarding the terms.  The Italian guns are not exact copies, but they're are close.  Perhaps "reproductions" or "facsimiles".

Aside from the metallurgical differences, there are dimensional difference.  The rifling was originally gain twist, and the repros have constant twist.  The originals, so far as I've been able to determine by querying owners of originals, has chambers at least as large in diameter as the rifling groove diameter, whereas the Italian repros tend to have undersized chambers.  Pietta loading cutouts (apparently depending on date of manufacture) don't allow load of period size conicals, whereas the originals were often used with conicals.  All that and more, and I suppose there were variations in production in the originals.

As for the '58 verses '63 date; this sort of thing is Connor to the point of being universal in the gun world.  We call a 1911 a 1911, for example, no matter when it's particular iteration was adopted.  Nothing quite like it may have ever existed until the year 2015, but it's still a 1911.

Further; who's to say that the people at Remington didn't call this Mew Model the "1858 New Model"?  Hmm?  Giving the naming conventions, well established before the 1860s, I would find that quite probable.  So far I've read and heard several rather indignant rants on the 58 verses 63 issue, but no one has said one way or the other how the Remington people in the 1860s referred to the New Model guns.  In any case, being that it is build under the 1858 patent, it would not improper for anyone to call it the 1858 New Model, thus distinguishing it from the 1858 Beals or Remington Beals, or 1858 Old Model.  Similarly we have the AR-15, which, if you want to get persnickety, practically no one owns and few alive today have even seen up close, but we still refer to our Stoner design-based guns as AR-15s ('cause basically, they are).  There are only a handful of AK-47s in this country too, and yet we tent to refer to the hundreds of thousands of AK-based guns as "AK-47s" even though practically none of us avid AK shooters, who own several AKs, have never seen an actual AK-47.

Offline Kid Vermin

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2015, 06:01:25 PM »
I've always preferred the term "Clone". Makes it sound a little dirty.
Collecting about any color cap and ball revolver as long as it has a top strap and 8", 6 1/2", 5 1/2" or 4" barrel.

Offline G Dog

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2015, 06:40:27 PM »
A Remington or a Colt (insert your favorite nominative) by any other name would shoot as sweet.

Synonymy and semantic analysis can be interesting and lots of fun at times but I went shooting with a Colt and a Rem early today and that was lots mo funner and way interestinger.

Poor Johnnie ... no Colts.
 
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Offline Hewy

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2015, 08:32:54 PM »
 &j( , both shoot both look like an original. Aren't we replicating what we
think happened in the past? I know I do.
Colt made a Remington "lookalike" ,after patent expired,  with the inclusion of a top strap
in their design. Did they not replicate , same but different.
i like my Remingtons and My Colt 1851 Navy. Both Made by Pietta.
 {?(
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 08:28:50 AM by Hewy »
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Offline Hylander

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2015, 01:57:44 AM »
Love the Piettas, gotta get a Uberti some time  8)

Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2015, 03:41:53 PM »
Dear Friends,
            Poor Johnnie Indeed!  I feel myself BLESSED not to have one of those unreliable, Cranky, Open Framed Monstrosities in my collection of Percussion Weapons!  For I have THREE Copies/Replicaa's/Duplicates of the 1863 Remington New Army Revolver, but with 5.5" barrels,  These three WONDERFUL weapons ALWAYS go off whenever I press the trigger at my (?) range,(Which is a patch of Natural Arizona Desert, measuring roughly 93,000 Acres!) Where I am wont to enjoy my guns, "Far from the Madding Crowd!" While using these Very Well Designed weapons, I have NEVER had a cap jam up the guns, and since I perfected my method of loading and cleaning them, I have NEVER had either a misfire of a failure to fire!  Which is more than can be said for my very first Percussion Revolver!  This Thrice Accursed Gun, was a copy of the Colt 1860 Army, and gave me so much aggravation, I was often tempted to hurl the bloody thing down range, after the last shot it HAD successfully fired! I NEVER got six consequitive shots out of the Benighted thing! Then one evening a nice young man, a New Memebr of the club, came onto the range with a different style of Percussion Revolver!  I watched as he loaded it, put caps on the nipples, and looked around, and then asked me if it was okay for him to fire.  (I think he was being considerate about my ears!)  I nodded, and to my amazement and confusion, six rounds boomed out, without the hint of a bobble! So I went up to the young fellow,(I was about the same age as he was w-a-y back then!) and asked if I may examine his revolver.  It turned out to be a replica of the Remington New Army.  The Young guy obligingly removed the cylinder, which surprised the Heck outa me, as it was so quick and simple, and I immediately saw the narrow slot in the recoil shield, through which the hammer had to pass to strike the cap. Once struck by the hammer, the cap of course spread out, and as too big to be dragged back through the slot in the recoil shield, so the IRRITATING JAMS I HAD BEEN EXPERIENCING WITH THE THRICED
ACCURSED COLT 1860 ARMY, could not possibly occur with this design.  Upon reaching Home, I prayed that the Lord would provide me with a big enough Fool, with a desire to buy my 1860 Colt Repro from me.  The Lord was kind enough to provide such a Fool, and with the money thus gained, I went to Messrs. Cogswell and Harrison in London's Piccadilly, and purchased my First Replica Remington .44! I have NEVER LOOKED BACK!!!!! (This was in England in about 1963!)
            It has been roughly three and a half years since I had my last Missfire/Failure to fire!  The last occasion was caused by the fact that I had unwisely bought some CCI Persussion caps. I had lightened my Mainspring slightly, and CCI caps require a very heavy hammer blow to reliably set them off.  Since that time, I have used Exclusively Remington # 10 Caps, which for me, have proved Infallible!
            For me, Remington #10 Caps have proved Ultra Reliable, and this, coupled with the way I clean my weapons, and the way I reload them, gives me 100% reliability of fire!  I recently took out to my range, six cylinders that I had loaded, and placed in a box that I dated!  After they had remained loaded for Nine Months, I took all six with me, and each and every cylinder, fired all six chambers with a Very Loud BOOM, and a Full Power Shot!!!  I carry Betsina,(The Firstborn of my Triplets.) with me daily, in a shoulder Holster, for Self Defense should the occasion arise that required the use of, "Deadly Force!" Most Fortunatly, this has not so far occurred! However, in spite of never having ever been a Boy Scout, I do most heartily endorse their Motto!"Be Prepared!"
            Some of my good fiends on this forum, (And a few others, who would probably like to learn of my passing?) have hinted they consider it most un-wise of me, to rely on a system that has been around for over 150 years!  Well it all depends on how you load and keep the weapons, in a constant state of Readiness!  You see I KNOW that every time I drop a hammer on a cap, the gun WILL go off! My good friend Richard has chronographed my Personal Defense Load,(PDL for short!) at an average speed of 945.55 fps! (For a black Powder Revolver with a fairly short barrel, That Aint Hay!)  So since I have supreme confidence that the gun WILL ALWAYS GO BOOM, WHENEVER I SQUEEZE THE RIGGER, I have great faith in my methods, as well as my loads and the guns themselves!  I have a couple more cylinders, that are approaching eighteen Months since they were loaded, and I will shoot them off when it is slightly OVER eighteen months since I loaded them,and will report on this forum what happened!
            To get the velocity, I use .457 balls.  It seems that it takes the powder charge a Nano Second or two longer to get the heavier, and more tightly fitting ball to begin to move in the chamber, and this fraction of a second allows the charge to REALLY GET IT'S DANDER UP! The result is about 100 fps faster than the same charge with the recommended .454 Ball!  I have always admired General Nathan Bedford Forrest! You will doubtless remember his saying? "Git That Fustest with  The Mostest" 
            Should anyone wish to know what my PDL is, I must warn you that it should ONLY BE USED IN MODERN MADE REPLICA'S OF THE REMINGTON REVOLVER. It may destroy an Original Remington Revolver.  So only use it in Pietta's of relatively New Construction!  It IS a STOUT LOAD!  Kinda like setting off a Nike Ground to Air Missile, with your own two sweaty little hands!  The first time I touched it off, I remember thinking, "WOW!" The Recoil WILL get your attention!
                                                                                     Johnnie Roper,Alias:Gunslinger9378.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 03:52:06 PM by Gunslinger9378 »
Never make the mistake of thinking I will not shoot..........
Because it may be your very last mistake!

Offline G Dog

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2015, 03:56:00 PM »
Good Thomas Hardy allusion though, hadn't expected that. 
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Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2015, 04:09:11 PM »
Dear G-Dog,
             Well I was educated in English Private Schools, then went onto four years in a Grammar School!  They tend to focus quite a bit on English Literature in those places!  I have forgotten 98.5% of it all, but occasionally a title like that one comes into my head, when I feel it describes a situation. Like being all alone, in an area bigger than the size of the County of Hampshire ,in England!
                                                                                     Johnnie Roper,Alias:Gunslinger9378.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 12:38:21 PM by Gunslinger9378 »
Never make the mistake of thinking I will not shoot..........
Because it may be your very last mistake!

Offline SUZUKIBRUCE

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Re: "replica vs duplicate vs copy
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2015, 09:13:28 PM »
Similarly we have the AR-15, which, if you want to get persnickety, practically no one owns and few alive today have even seen up close, but we still refer to our Stoner design-based guns as AR-15s ('cause basically, they are).  There are only a handful of AK-47s in this country too, and yet we tent to refer to the hundreds of thousands of AK-based guns as "AK-47s" even though practically none of us avid AK shooters, who own several AKs, have never seen an actual AK-47.

well at least my SKS is an SKS...lol...

anyway, what about the remington rider double action? does anyone have a schematic for one of those? i would like to see if i could modify a 58 .44 into a rider...

http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/57/lid/3142
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