Author Topic: 1 grain of Hercules Bullseye Pistol Powder can be used with excellent results...  (Read 5347 times)

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Offline Gunslinger9378

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Dear Friends,
            PLEASE!  Let us be sensible about his subject! STICK TO BLACK POWDER ONLY FOR BLACK POWDER GUNS! I don't want to hear of anyone having their friends feeding their new Seeing Eye Dog, tit-bits when they come visit you!!!!!!!!!!!!
            Our guns are BLACK POWDER GUNS! So for God's sake use ONLY BLACK POWDER IN THEM!  By all means carry out experiments, IF YOU HAVE A FORTY ACRE FIELD TO DO IT IN, AND A VERY LONG LENGTH OF CORD TO PULL THE TRIGGER WITH!  i have done some bloody stupid things in my life too, like getting married seven times, but I would never risk my right hand, my eyesight, or risk losing a limb, BY STUPIDLY PUTTING SMOKELESS POWDER IN ANY TYPE OF BLACK POWDER GUN! For God's Sake! It is the one cardinal rule drummed into us all! NEVER, EVER use Smokeless in a gun designed to use Black Powder!  Even if I had a double thick Kevlar Overcoat, with a facemask, and a pair of bullet proof glasses, I'd still never put any smokeless in ANY of my guns!  For one thing I have gotten very fond of my guns!  I don't want to see any of them turned into fragments!  Only this week, I did some work on the other two revolvers, and Katarina the Carbine. Now all have trigger stops fitted. Press the trigger on any of my guns, the hammer drops, but I don't FEEL the trigger move! Almost certain to improve accuracy!  I have time and effort invested in my weapons! I'm not going to risk any
harm coming to guns I have worked on so lovingly!  Come on Feller's! Lets show some common sense here!  We are all friends here, and no one can afford to lose a friend in these troubled times!  If you want to use smokeless, buy a Smith & Wesson and reload cartridges for it!
                                                                                       Johnnie Roper,Alias:Gunslnger9378.
Never make the mistake of thinking I will not shoot..........
Because it may be your very last mistake!

Offline Little Billy

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The wax 45 bullet only wieghs in at abot 21 grains or so, so 1grn of bullsey would be safe (In theory!) {_K.

Not enough presure per thing going on.

It would be realy hard to handle though. Its so fine (THE POWDER) it clings to everything. One of anything I tend to loose. :9)


Offline Cross Plains Drifter

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Dear Friends,
            PLEASE!  Let us be sensible about his subject! STICK TO BLACK POWDER ONLY FOR BLACK POWDER GUNS! I don't want to hear of anyone having their friends feeding their new Seeing Eye Dog, tit-bits when they come visit you!!!!!!!!!!!!
            Our guns are BLACK POWDER GUNS! So for God's sake use ONLY BLACK POWDER IN THEM!  By all means carry out experiments, IF YOU HAVE A FORTY ACRE FIELD TO DO IT IN, AND A VERY LONG LENGTH OF CORD TO PULL THE TRIGGER WITH!  i have done some bloody stupid things in my life too, like getting married seven times, but I would never risk my right hand, my eyesight, or risk losing a limb, BY STUPIDLY PUTTING SMOKELESS POWDER IN ANY TYPE OF BLACK POWDER GUN! For God's Sake! It is the one cardinal rule drummed into us all! NEVER, EVER use Smokeless in a gun designed to use Black Powder!  Even if I had a double thick Kevlar Overcoat, with a facemask, and a pair of bullet proof glasses, I'd still never put any smokeless in ANY of my guns!  For one thing I have gotten very fond of my guns!  I don't want to see any of them turned into fragments!  Only this week, I did some work on the other two revolvers, and Katarina the Carbine. Now all have trigger stops fitted. Press the trigger on any of my guns, the hammer drops, but I don't FEEL the trigger move! Almost certain to improve accuracy!  I have time and effort invested in my weapons! I'm not going to risk any
harm coming to guns I have worked on so lovingly!  Come on Feller's! Lets show some common sense here!  We are all friends here, and no one can afford to lose a friend in these troubled times!  If you want to use smokeless, buy a Smith & Wesson and reload cartridges for it!
                                                                                       Johnnie Roper,Alias:Gunslnger9378.

Amen Johnnie..........Amen

like the old saying goes........the best fireworks are sold by men with 3 fingers and one eye..............
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Offline Little Billy

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Thats what I was trying to say. (^h

I do air out the basement though.. &j(

Offline Little Billy

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This post should almost be moved to powder. Sorry. :)

Offline G Dog

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I’ll pass, thanks.  BP works quite well enough all on its own.  Start messin with smokeless in a BP piece and you'll end up as one handed statistic.  Even worse (!) - you'll f/u yer gun.
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Offline WECSOG

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Loading instructions for that particular revolver is "2 grains BP", meaning 2 by VOLUME.

Except that with real BP, grains "by volume" is exactly the same thing as actual weight, i.e. the volume of one grain of black powder is determined by weighing out one grain.

In all cases, smokeless charges are given in actual grains as well.

There is no such thing as "grains by volume" unless we are talking black powder substitutes.

Incorrect.

One grain of volume water is one grain weight of water. 

Water is the only substance where one grain by volume is exactly one grain by weight.  Water is the sole basis for establishing volume and weight in grains.  Every other substance weighed or volume-measured in "grains" is compared to an equivalent in water.

The volume of one grain BP is the *volume* of one grain of water.

However, BP weighs considerably less by equivalent volume than does water.  It happens that one grain by weight of true BP FFFg is approximately 4.6grains by volume.  Also, different grinds have different weights by volume.  If you sprinkle FFFg on a scale pan until you get one grain by weight, you will have approximately 1/5th grain by volume.

In this thread we are discussing miniscule volumes of very light explosives in which the difference between measures of weight and measures of volume represent *significant* differences in performance in smokeless.  In any evaluation of miniscule volumes vs miniscule weights in one sentence, in which the author employs the term ""grains" of BP *and* "grains" of smokeless in the same sentence, then the unit of measure "grains" should not be the same.  The author must be held accountable for proper labeling so the author's intent is made clear.

The importance to this semantic excercise is to prevent people from presuming they can measure smokeless with a dipper in grains of volume as they can with BP.    In the establishment of BP measurement, volume of water was very convenient, mostly because of the relatively large quantity of BP to be shoved down a barrel, had very small consequences for minor variations in quantity, and because the measures could be made by referencing standard water measures.  In the establishment of smokeless measurement, weight is essential because small variations by careless volume could result in lethal consequences.

Making this distinction is germain in this thread because the question is how much Bullseye by volume could be used in an NAA 22mag BP revolver.  A previous reply gave a measurement for Bullseye, using the word "grains".  By weight, that many grains would have been deadly.  By volume, it would have been only seriously injurious. :9)

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not only not are there no “universal standards” for volumetric grains, there never were. Yet, some manufacturers dodder on, suggesting that blackpowder is supposed to be measured by volume, or was designed to be. This is absolute rubbish.

You won’t find any definition of a blackpowder volumetric grain from the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), or any other source that I know of. The reason is simple; there is none. Blackpowder has always been measured by weight, not by volume
Source: http://chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_volumetric.htm

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Grain, unit of weight equal to 0.065 gram, or 1/7,000 pound avoirdupois. One of the earliest units of common measure and the smallest, it is a uniform unit in the avoirdupois, apothecaries’, and troy systems. The ancient grain, varying from one culture to the next, was defined as the weight of a designated number of dry wheat (or other edible grain) kernels taken from the middle of the ear.
Source: https://www.britannica.com/science/grain-unit-of-weight

Black powder is measured by weight (whether grains, drams or some other measure) but dispensed by use of a volumetric measure that is calibrated by weight. A 30 grain spout or dipper measures nominally 30 grains (which is a measure of weight) of black powder. The reason we use these spouts and dippers is convenience: it would be slow and difficult to carry around a precision scale to weigh every charge.

We reloaders do pretty much the same thing with our powder measures for smokeless powder, including these Lee dippers that are marked in cc (volume). That is a volume measure, but the dipper sets come with a slide rule to look up how much of various powder types each dipper holds, in grains (which is, again, a measure of weight). Most reloaders don't take that as gospel, but check it on their reloading scale before proceeding to charge cases.

The only reason there is any such concept as "volumetric grains" is for the purpose of comparing BP substitutes to real black powder. The manufacturers could have either made the weight equal to BP (which is what Alliant did with Promo vs. Red Dot) and let the volume fall where it may, or make the volume equal to BP and let the weight fall where it may. The only other possible option would be to supply a calibrated dipper with each can of powder, with the admonishment to never use any other dippers or spouts with the powder.
They could have done that and not bothered with trying to make it a one-for-one substitute for BP at all. It would have been very difficult and expensive to make BP subs comparable in performance to an equal weight AND volume of BP.  Since the manufacturers know that just about all of us use dippers and/or spouts to measure our BP, they made the obvious decision to make their subs usable with our existing measures; with a warning that the weight will not be the same. Hence the misnomer "volumetric grains." That's just a handy term, but it doesn't actually exist because just as gallons is not a measure of weight, grains is NOT a measure of volume.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 07:59:12 AM by WECSOG »

Offline Hawg

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Black powder can be measured by volume and by weight since say 30 grains of bp by weight is 30 grains by volume or very close to the same. Subs do need to be measured by volume since the weight is much lighter than real bp.  Somewhere since the advent of subs real bp got caught up in the measured only by volume, probably started by magazine writers and spread exponentially.
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Offline WECSOG

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Black powder can be measured by volume and by weight since say 30 grains of bp by weight is 30 grains by volume or very close to the same. Subs do need to be measured by volume since the weight is much lighter than real bp.  Somewhere since the advent of subs real bp got caught up in the measured only by volume, probably started by magazine writers and spread exponentially.

BP can be measured with a volumetric dipper or spout, but that volumetric measure is calibrated by weight.

Offline Hawg

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Weight, volume it doesn't matter since they're the same. Volumetric measures aren't regulated and different manufacturers measures often throw different weights.
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Offline WECSOG

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Weight, volume it doesn't matter since they're the same. Volumetric measures aren't regulated and different manufacturers measures often throw different weights.
They're not precisely regulated, but they are based on the weight of the black powder they hold. They're not arbitrary; a "30 grain" black powder spout or measure is supposed to measure approximately 30 grains of black powder. If you weigh a charge of BP from one of those and it is not within 10 percent or so, you have a defective measure.

Offline Omnivore

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Loading instructions for that particular revolver is "2 grains BP", meaning 2 by VOLUME.

Except that with real BP, grains "by volume" is exactly the same thing as actual weight, i.e. the volume of one grain of black powder is determined by weighing out one grain.

In all cases, smokeless charges are given in actual grains as well.

There is no such thing as "grains by volume" unless we are talking black powder substitutes.

Incorrect.

One grain of volume water is one grain weight of water. 

It looks like you're confusing the grain with the gram.  The mass of a cubic centimeter of water (pure, at specified temperature) is one gram.  One gram of water has a volume of one CC.  The gram being a unit of mass, does not have a volume unless a substance (water in this case) is specified.

Likewise, a grain is a unit of weight only.  It does not have a particular volume.

If you think it does, then define the volume of a grain.  Right.  You can't, because it isn't a unit of volume.  It's definition is "one seven thousandth of a pound".  Being a unit of weight, it has no cubic dimension (linear measurement X linear measurement X linear measurement) associated with it.

The ONE AND ONLY instance in which "grains by volume" is a relevant term is when replacing black
powder with a black powder substitute.  The term was never used until the black powder substitutes were invented.  There it makes sense because it allows you to use the same field measure for both real BP and the substitute powder.  If your field measure is set up to dispense 30 grains of real BP, and you're now using a substitute powder, then you're said to be using "a volume of substitute powder equivalent to the volume of 30 grains of black powder".

It's extremely simple (replacement of BP on a volume-for-volume basis because that's the easiest way to do it) and there's nothing more and nothing less to it than that.

The dippers that Lee sells are specified in cubic centimeters.  That's a legitimate unit of volume.  You then need their chart to determine the weight per CC of all the various powders.  And so, as with real BP, although you're dispensing from a volumetric measure, the basic unit is still that of weight (verified by weighing it.  On a scale) and that unit of weight is the grain.
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Offline WECSOG

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Loading instructions for that particular revolver is "2 grains BP", meaning 2 by VOLUME.

Except that with real BP, grains "by volume" is exactly the same thing as actual weight, i.e. the volume of one grain of black powder is determined by weighing out one grain.

In all cases, smokeless charges are given in actual grains as well.

There is no such thing as "grains by volume" unless we are talking black powder substitutes.

Incorrect.

One grain of volume water is one grain weight of water. 

It looks like you're confusing the grain with the gram.  The mass of a cubic centimeter of water (pure, at specified temperature) is one gram.  One gram of water has a volume of one CC.  The gram being a unit of mass, does not have a volume unless a substance (water in this case) is specified.

Likewise, a grain is a unit of weight only.  It does not have a particular volume.

If you think it does, then define the volume of a grain.  Right.  You can't, because it isn't a unit of volume.  It's definition is "one seven thousandth of a pound".  Being a unit of weight, it has no cubic dimension (linear measurement X linear measurement X linear measurement) associated with it.

The ONE AND ONLY instance in which "grains by volume" is a relevant term is when replacing black
powder with a black powder substitute.  The term was never used until the black powder substitutes were invented.  There it makes sense because it allows you to use the same field measure for both real BP and the substitute powder.  If your field measure is set up to dispense 30 grains of real BP, and you're now using a substitute powder, then you're said to be using "a volume of substitute powder equivalent to the volume of 30 grains of black powder".

It's extremely simple (replacement of BP on a volume-for-volume basis because that's the easiest way to do it) and there's nothing more and nothing less to it than that.

The dippers that Lee sells are specified in cubic centimeters.  That's a legitimate unit of volume.  You then need their chart to determine the weight per CC of all the various powders.  And so, as with real BP, although you're dispensing from a volumetric measure, the basic unit is still that of weight (verified by weighing it.  On a scale) and that unit of weight is the grain.

Exactly.