Author Topic: 1 grain of Hercules Bullseye Pistol Powder can be used with excellent results...  (Read 3196 times)

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Offline Little Billy

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10 grains of 777, fff, gota be close. But safer. :9)

Offline Classanr

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10 grains of 777, fff, gota be close. But safer. :9)

Caution, the previous post has conflicting data.

Loading instructions for that particular revolver is "2 grains BP", meaning 2 by VOLUME.

When talking BP and Smokeless in the same discussion, it is crucial that you state each and every measure in WEIGHT or VOLUME so the casual reader doesn't make a gross mistake.

Hopefully, LittleBIlly is not advocating 10grains BP by volume, although the general presumption is BP measurements will be in VOL, and smokeless measurements will be in WEIGHT.

That revolver won't take more than 3.4 grains VOL.  10grains WEIGHT BP is about 2.2grain VOL BP (just about what the instruction manual calls for).

But, normally, when people refer to or read "10 grains 777", they presume VOLUME.

Messin' about with smokeless in the NAA/Freedom guns has only three known factors, as follows:

1.  In the .22, 1gr by weight of BullsEye is generally accepted as safe.
2.  In the .22mag, 2gr by weight of BullsEye is generally accepted as safe.
3.  Otherwise, only use the dipper (.1cc/.22, .3cc/22mag) that came with the gun, and only fill with BP 4F.  DO NOT OVERFILL OR COMPACT any powder.  Performance *will* suffer.  These are not your normal BP chambers.

Why is this so?  Because the gun's chamber designer, Dick Casull, has blown up many a gun trying to find out what doesn't work.  What he has discovered is that almost all smokeless powders are not safe in these guns for reasons that differ between powders.  DIck does have his own pet load, but he refuses to release the information because any of several miniscule mistakes turn the gun into a grenade.

After considerable research and close calculation over many different powders, I am of the opinion that there are two more "safe" smokeless powders for use in *just* these NAA guns.  But I have not yet put those to the test.  Time and respect for my guns are delaying the project.  It is not something I wish to quickly try over a weekend.  Several members of this forum have bets down on my destroying some very nice equipment.

In the mean time, stick with BP, use the dipper, don't mess with the formula.  If you want to walk on the wild side, 1gr WEIGHT BullsEye for .22, 2gr WEIGHT BullsEye for .22mag.  Nothing less, nothing more, both under *only* the NAA 30gr concave base .22 lead bullet.
Jim Beam me, Scotty!  Life here is more intelligent than I.

Offline Woody127

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10 grains of 777, fff, gota be close. But safer. :9)

Caution, the previous post has conflicting data.

Loading instructions for that particular revolver is "2 grains BP", meaning 2 by VOLUME.

When talking BP and Smokeless in the same discussion, it is crucial that you state each and every measure in WEIGHT or VOLUME so the casual reader doesn't make a gross mistake.

Hopefully, LittleBIlly is not advocating 10grains BP by volume, although the general presumption is BP measurements will be in VOL, and smokeless measurements will be in WEIGHT.

That revolver won't take more than 3.4 grains VOL.  10grains WEIGHT BP is about 2.2grain VOL BP (just about what the instruction manual calls for).

But, normally, when people refer to or read "10 grains 777", they presume VOLUME.

Messin' about with smokeless in the NAA/Freedom guns has only three known factors, as follows:

1.  In the .22, 1gr by weight of BullsEye is generally accepted as safe.
2.  In the .22mag, 2gr by weight of BullsEye is generally accepted as safe.
3.  Otherwise, only use the dipper (.1cc/.22, .3cc/22mag) that came with the gun, and only fill with BP 4F.  DO NOT OVERFILL OR COMPACT any powder.  Performance *will* suffer.  These are not your normal BP chambers.

Why is this so?  Because the gun's chamber designer, Dick Casull, has blown up many a gun trying to find out what doesn't work.  What he has discovered is that almost all smokeless powders are not safe in these guns for reasons that differ between powders.  DIck does have his own pet load, but he refuses to release the information because any of several miniscule mistakes turn the gun into a grenade.

After considerable research and close calculation over many different powders, I am of the opinion that there are two more "safe" smokeless powders for use in *just* these NAA guns.  But I have not yet put those to the test.  Time and respect for my guns are delaying the project.  It is not something I wish to quickly try over a weekend.  Several members of this forum have bets down on my destroying some very nice equipment.

In the mean time, stick with BP, use the dipper, don't mess with the formula.  If you want to walk on the wild side, 1gr WEIGHT BullsEye for .22, 2gr WEIGHT BullsEye for .22mag.  Nothing less, nothing more, both under *only* the NAA 30gr concave base .22 lead bullet.

In the .22Mag, How much BullsEye can one safely use by volume in the yellow dipper?

Offline Omnivore

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Loading instructions for that particular revolver is "2 grains BP", meaning 2 by VOLUME.

Except that with real BP, grains "by volume" is exactly the same thing as actual weight, i.e. the volume of one grain of black powder is determined by weighing out one grain.

In all cases, smokeless charges are given in actual grains as well.

There is no such thing as "grains by volume" unless we are talking black powder substitutes.

Offline Classanr

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10 grains of 777, fff, gota be close. But safer. :9)

Caution, the previous post has conflicting data.

Loading instructions for that particular revolver is "2 grains BP", meaning 2 by VOLUME.

When talking BP and Smokeless in the same discussion, it is crucial that you state each and every measure in WEIGHT or VOLUME so the casual reader doesn't make a gross mistake.

Hopefully, LittleBIlly is not advocating 10grains BP by volume, although the general presumption is BP measurements will be in VOL, and smokeless measurements will be in WEIGHT.

That revolver won't take more than 3.4 grains VOL.  10grains WEIGHT BP is about 2.2grain VOL BP (just about what the instruction manual calls for).

But, normally, when people refer to or read "10 grains 777", they presume VOLUME.

Messin' about with smokeless in the NAA/Freedom guns has only three known factors, as follows:

1.  In the .22, 1gr by weight of BullsEye is generally accepted as safe.
2.  In the .22mag, 2gr by weight of BullsEye is generally accepted as safe.
3.  Otherwise, only use the dipper (.1cc/.22, .3cc/22mag) that came with the gun, and only fill with BP 4F.  DO NOT OVERFILL OR COMPACT any powder.  Performance *will* suffer.  These are not your normal BP chambers.

Why is this so?  Because the gun's chamber designer, Dick Casull, has blown up many a gun trying to find out what doesn't work.  What he has discovered is that almost all smokeless powders are not safe in these guns for reasons that differ between powders.  DIck does have his own pet load, but he refuses to release the information because any of several miniscule mistakes turn the gun into a grenade.

After considerable research and close calculation over many different powders, I am of the opinion that there are two more "safe" smokeless powders for use in *just* these NAA guns.  But I have not yet put those to the test.  Time and respect for my guns are delaying the project.  It is not something I wish to quickly try over a weekend.  Several members of this forum have bets down on my destroying some very nice equipment.

In the mean time, stick with BP, use the dipper, don't mess with the formula.  If you want to walk on the wild side, 1gr WEIGHT BullsEye for .22, 2gr WEIGHT BullsEye for .22mag.  Nothing less, nothing more, both under *only* the NAA 30gr concave base .22 lead bullet.

In the .22Mag, How much BullsEye can one safely use by volume in the yellow dipper?

Ref: http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Dippers.pdf

Lee makes two very small sizes of dippers marked in CC.
Those are 0.17cc and 0.3cc dippers.  Both are yellow.  The black dippers Lee *used* to make are sized a bit differently and should not be considered "interchangeable" down at this level.
The 0.17 dipper is for  BP in the 22lr
the 0.3 dipper is for BP in the 22mag.

Reading Lee's table for Bullseye, you will over-fill the BP 22mag chamber with a 0.3cc dipper-full of Bullseye (2.8gr weight equivalent, where 2gr weight Bullseye is considered the safe limit).  A 0.3 dipper of Bullseye would be a 40% overcharge!  Conclusion, don't use the 0.3cc Lee dipper for Bullseye in a NAA BP 22mag cylinder.

However, the 0.17 Lee dipper provides only 1.6gr weight equivalent, so the smaller dipper would short-change you in the BP 22mag chamber.

Worse, the 0.17cc Lee dipper will over-fill a BP 22LR chamber by a whopping 60% overcharge.  Conclusion, don't use the 0.17 Lee dipper for Bullseye in a NAA BP 22LR chamber.

Please note how easy it will be to make HUGE pressure changes with TINY changes of Bullseye in BP firearms.  This is where people make "just a slight error too much" and discover they have made an example of themselves, and is why extreme caution is recommended (aka telling people to not do it) when putting smokeless into a BP firearm.

The recommedation is to make your own dipper that matches 2gr weight of Bullseye, and mark it for that purpose only.  Best way is to weigh Bullseye, make a measure to fit the resulting volume.  Even then, with the opportunity to make mistakes, you should make three separate dippers, each made from three separate charges of Bullseye weighed.  If any of the three dippers does not throw exactly the same amount as the other two, and that amount does not weight exactly 2gr, then toss out the dippers that throw under the correct weight and trim down the dippers that throw too much weight.  Do not be surprised that you have three dippers that won't throw a consistent charge.  We are working in miniscule fractions of CC's, and weighing from scales that have factory deviations easily +/- 10% of the entire charge (keeping in mind the target charge is a mere one or two CCs), then throwing in human error while working in a constantly changing ambient environment is a sure-fire way to mess with your accuracy.

Think of it this way:  if it were easy, thousands of people would be doing it, and nobody would be getting hurt.
Jim Beam me, Scotty!  Life here is more intelligent than I.

Offline Classanr

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Quote
Loading instructions for that particular revolver is "2 grains BP", meaning 2 by VOLUME.

Except that with real BP, grains "by volume" is exactly the same thing as actual weight, i.e. the volume of one grain of black powder is determined by weighing out one grain.

In all cases, smokeless charges are given in actual grains as well.

There is no such thing as "grains by volume" unless we are talking black powder substitutes.

Incorrect.

One grain of volume water is one grain weight of water. 

Water is the only substance where one grain by volume is exactly one grain by weight.  Water is the sole basis for establishing volume and weight in grains.  Every other substance weighed or volume-measured in "grains" is compared to an equivalent in water.

The volume of one grain BP is the *volume* of one grain of water.

However, BP weighs considerably less by equivalent volume than does water.  It happens that one grain by weight of true BP FFFg is approximately 4.6grains by volume.  Also, different grinds have different weights by volume.  If you sprinkle FFFg on a scale pan until you get one grain by weight, you will have approximately 1/5th grain by volume.

In this thread we are discussing miniscule volumes of very light explosives in which the difference between measures of weight and measures of volume represent *significant* differences in performance in smokeless.  In any evaluation of miniscule volumes vs miniscule weights in one sentence, in which the author employs the term ""grains" of BP *and* "grains" of smokeless in the same sentence, then the unit of measure "grains" should not be the same.  The author must be held accountable for proper labeling so the author's intent is made clear.

The importance to this semantic excercise is to prevent people from presuming they can measure smokeless with a dipper in grains of volume as they can with BP.    In the establishment of BP measurement, volume of water was very convenient, mostly because of the relatively large quantity of BP to be shoved down a barrel, had very small consequences for minor variations in quantity, and because the measures could be made by referencing standard water measures.  In the establishment of smokeless measurement, weight is essential because small variations by careless volume could result in lethal consequences.

Making this distinction is germain in this thread because the question is how much Bullseye by volume could be used in an NAA 22mag BP revolver.  A previous reply gave a measurement for Bullseye, using the word "grains".  By weight, that many grains would have been deadly.  By volume, it would have been only seriously injurious. :9)
Jim Beam me, Scotty!  Life here is more intelligent than I.

Offline BP

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Well done! The aspects which you have clearly detailed are (additionally) applicable to the various cartridge conversion/reloading discourse.

.

Offline Woody127

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Quote

Incorrect.

One grain of volume water is one grain weight of water. 

Water is the only substance where one grain by volume is exactly one grain by weight.  Water is the sole basis for establishing volume and weight in grains.  Every other substance weighed or volume-measured in "grains" is compared to an equivalent in water.

The volume of one grain BP is the *volume* of one grain of water.

Well, Not exactly.
Water density changes with temperature & dissolved solids, Mineral content.
And varies from tap, Fresh & salt water.
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2007/AllenMa.shtml
Distilled water at room temperature is your best gauge for comparison.
For the minute amounts of powder we are dealing with this is not really significant, But relevant never the less.

I should receive these late this week:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002BDOHNA/ref=ox_ya_os_product_refresh_T1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ARK0ROC/ref=ox_ya_os_product_refresh_T1

It is not a laboratory analytical balance but, Should suffice for my purposes. I do wish it included a calibration weight on the lower end where I am most concerned.

I am curious to see what the Bulls-Eye powder will do in the NAA magnum.

Using Swiss 4F the .22Cal.magnum with the NAA supplied bullets, Penetration was two-thirds into one of those fat phone books.

I will be a bit apprehensive the first couple of shots but, I will start out light working up to two grains by weight.

Did you know, If you sat in the bathtub filled with distilled water, And your wife threw the hair dryer in the tub, Nothing would happen.





Offline Classanr

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Did you know, If you sat in the bathtub filled with distilled water, And your wife threw the hair dryer in the tub, Nothing would happen.

I beg to differ.
There'd be serious yelling followed by divorce procedings.
Not because she threw in the dryer, but because I purchased 30 gallons of distilled water so I could take a bath. )L$


TESTING:
You could safely start at 2gr weight of Bullseye.  That was the manufacturer's "safe" load in the NAA Earl 22mag.  It is the universally recognized safe load, and worked so well that BATFE required the removal of any reference to using smokeless in any NAA BP firearm.

The only questions you face are "can you safely fill the chamber with Bullseye to the ledge in the cylinder?" and "is there another powder that will not blow up the Earl plus what is that powder's limit?"  You need a strain gauge to determine those limits, not count on velocity or subjective felt-recoil.  There will not be any brass casing to examine after each shot, just a hunk of drilled out stainless.  Maybe magnaflux the cylinder after each shot???

Do not pack the powder.  These chambers are unlike any design you've ever used before.  They work best with loose powder, not packed.  Everybody who *packs* in more BP report lower velocity, not higher.  Truly, the BP and smokeless rules are turned on their head with the Earl's chamber design.

You are most likely to have caps blown back at you when you are reaching the upper limits.  You must use NAA's stipulated caps, and they must fit properly, or you will get serious rearward-venting gases.

Powders will behave very differently in the Earl's chambers because the shape of the chambers is are long and narrow, not short and fat, plus the projectile will be pushed out of a wider chamber than the portion in which the powder is placed, allowing the gases to dramatically expand while still in the cylinder.  The entire design objective is to get all the powder super-heated (not burning) thus shifting into a secondary explosion (a fuel-air bomb, so to speak), which is why there is a very narrow window between super-high performance and super-dangerous destruction in firearms such as The Earl when using smokeless.  The design works well with BP.  It's a bit dicey with smokeless, because smokeless is chemically and physically contructed for totally different burning environments than found in the chambers of The Earl.

I would recommend that you only use one chamber while working up a load that exceeds 2gr weight of Bullseye (or any other weight of any other powder).
Jim Beam me, Scotty!  Life here is more intelligent than I.

Offline BOOMSTICK BRUCE

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After reading all this and all the other posts on this and other forums, I'm just going to stick with my super fine hand ground bp substitute I've been using. I wish I had a chronograph to test with.
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Offline Woody127

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Did you know, If you sat in the bathtub filled with distilled water, And your wife threw the hair dryer in the tub, Nothing would happen.

I beg to differ.
There'd be serious yelling followed by divorce procedings.
Not because she threw in the dryer, but because I purchased 30 gallons of distilled water so I could take a bath. )L$

OK, Would she complain if you did this in the bathroom? {:(

Offline Classanr

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Did you know, If you sat in the bathtub filled with distilled water, And your wife threw the hair dryer in the tub, Nothing would happen.

I beg to differ.
There'd be serious yelling followed by divorce procedings.
Not because she threw in the dryer, but because I purchased 30 gallons of distilled water so I could take a bath. )L$

OK, Would she complain if you did this in the bathroom? {:(
[snip out bathtub shooting range video]

Several years ago she informed me that if I were to shoot inside, I had a better chance at not being on the receiving end of her Glock if I contained the damage to the three triple-pane windows that had fogged up.  Since then, I have replaced those windows for her, which pretty much restricts my shooting now to "down the hall from the kitchen to the front door with just the pellet gun."  She knows if the front door is locked that she has to walk to the back so she won't cross the line of fire.
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Offline Kaboom

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Class, you've got one very understanding woman there. I've been told there will be NO shooting inside, even my pellet guns. Emphasis is NOT mine either. I can shoot the pellet gun in the back yard, but not inside. She even made me give up my blow gun. Can you believe that?   {:(   (u^   ^y%
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Offline jdurand

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My wife sometimes points out the hole in the door at the end of the hallway.  That was a low power test of a confetti cannon for a show we were doing.  To keep the mess down, I left the confetti bundled with a paper strap around it and put very little air in the cannon.

The packet traveled like a bullet, broke the door and the packet broke open leaving theatrical confetti (big pieces) everywhere.

The cannon was a hit in the show, with a full load it covered the stage after shooting about 30' in the air.
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