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Author Topic: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder  (Read 4439 times)

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ssb73q

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Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« on: January 09, 2013, 05:22:10 PM »
Hi, today I received my new 5-1/2" Pietta 1858 that I purchased from Cabella's recently. The revolver is perfect and well timed with the cap and ball cylinder. However, this revolver has the same problem with my two Taylor (R&D) 6-shot conversion cylinders that I had with the three other Pietta 1858s that I purchased last summer. It appears that this problem is systemic with current production Pietta 1858's.

The problem: The revolver with the conversion cylinder full cocks properly with the bolt locking the cylinder in place. However, if the hammer is let down after pulling the trigger, the bolt unlocks as the hammer moves forward. As the hammer gets close to the cylinder end, the bolt rises again far away from the cylinder bolt slot. This is a very unsafe situation that could get a shooter hurt. This problem occurred for all of my four Pietta 1858 purchased over the last eight months.

The reason for this problem: The bolt slot depth of the cap and ball cylinder is 0.063". The bolt slot depth of the Taylor (R&D) 6-shot cylinder is only 0.026". When the bolt rises on Taylor cylinder it is prevented in rising high enough such that the bolt leg can pop up on the hammer cam. Pulling the trigger then has the hammer actually draw the bolt back out of lockup on hammer fall. Sometimes the cylinder even rotates counterclockwise as the hammer is falling.

The solution: Without changing the revolver timing, a fix is necessary to have the bolt leg pop over the hammer cam with a very small bolt rise as with the conversion cylinder. A similar situation can also occur with the Colt 1873 SAA. The solution for the SAA is to bevel an edge of the bolt leg. The same fix can be applied to the 1858, but the bolt leg is a bit different than the SAA. A very small amount of metal is stoned off the 1858 bolt leg without (note without) changing the bolt leg length. If you change the bolt leg length, the timing will change, something you don't want to do. The following photos show an original bolt on the left, the modified bolt leg on the right:





When doing the stoning remove only a small amount of metal and test. Your initial testing (with cylinder removed) can simply be done by limiting the bolt height with your finger and pulling the trigger as the hammer is let down. As you keep removing metal you will notice that the bolt stays up more and more as the hammer is let down. Go easy and don't overdo the beveling because you could get to a point where the bolt doesn't retract on cocking.

Worst case is that you totally screw up your bolt. You can buy them from VTI for $15 (however, they are currently out of stock, expect more in 6-8 weeks). If you are a bit nervous about doing this yourself, you can either send your revolver to Taylor, or maybe talk them into sending you a modified bolt.

Remember, go slow and test often.

Another potential problem is the bolt/trigger spring bolt length. Pietta has lengthened this screw where it may rub or interfere with the conversion cylinder. The bolt end should just be flush with the frame. Shorten by filing this screw if necessary. Three of my Piettas needed this adjustment.

Regards,
Richard
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GrayFox

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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2013, 07:43:12 PM »
This is VERY timely.  I bought two of the 5.5" Remingtons when Cabelas had their sale last fall.  I've since gotten two of the Taylor's cylinders when Midway had them on sale.  One of the two guns has the problem where the cartridge cylinder will counter rotate when the hammer is lowered from full cock.  I'm going to read your instructions and look at the photos a couple more times before attempting the fix.  Thanks a lot!  Just for grins, what do you think the chances would be of getting the modified part from Taylor's?   GF

ssb73q

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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2013, 09:01:26 PM »
Hi GrayFox, IMO double check the revolver that appears OK. Watch the bolt as the hammer is allowed to go forward. If you see the bolt drop out, that revolver also has the problem. Just because the cylinder doesn't counter rotate doesn't mean there's no problem. Let the thread know what you find. It would be nice to know the ~% of problem Piettas currently being produced.

IMO Taylor must be going nuts with the current crop of Pietta 1858 and their conversion cylinder. Call Taylor first thing in the morning, 8:30AM EST, and tell the person that answers the phone that you need to talk to their gunsmith. I'm certain he will fix you up.

When I called Taylor it was to confirm the modification to the bolt leg of my first three Piettas was correct. Their gunsmith told me I did exactly what they do to resolve the issue. I suspect they may want your original bolt and will send you the modified replacement. Shipping guns around is pretty expensive, the bolt much lower cost. Let us know what you learn from Taylor. Good luck.

Regards,
Richard
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GrayFox

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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2013, 10:15:32 PM »
Thanks for the additional info.  The pair I have is only three numbers apart in serial numbers.  Viewed as I hold them up to this bright computer screen, the one functions just fine, but the other one the bold drops midway as you lower the hammer allowing the cylinder to counter rotate.  I'll call Taylor's in the morning.  Thanks again, GF.

ssb73q

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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2013, 06:20:18 AM »
Thanks for the additional info.  The pair I have is only three numbers apart in serial numbers.  Viewed as I hold them up to this bright computer screen, the one functions just fine, but the other one the bold drops midway as you lower the hammer allowing the cylinder to counter rotate.  I'll call Taylor's in the morning.  Thanks again, GF.

Hi GrayFox, it's good news to learn that not all the newly produced Piettas need to be modified to use the Taylor (R&D) 6-shot cylinder. When I talked to a Taylor gunsmith he divulged that they had an ~40% problem with the Piettas at that time. He said that they will resolve any problem and that a potential adjustment is built into the price. I would think that Taylor would have a potential serious liability issue. Maybe they rely on that a cylinder misaligned with the bore also has the firing pin also misaligned where the gun wouldn't fire?

When I experienced this problem with my original revolvers the cylinder bolt locked up on cocking and the cylinder inertia kept the cylinder somewhat aligned on normal fast hammer fall. Since it occurred on all my three Pietta 1858s I initially thought that's how it actually works. Only after thinking about it awhile did I realize the potential safety issue.

If someone has the 5-shot conversion cylinder, I would be very interested to know the cylinder bolt slot depth. A deeper slot 5-shot conversion cylinder may not have this lock up issue.

Regards,
Richard
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GrayFox

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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2013, 09:50:49 AM »
I just got off the phone with the gunsmith who said to mail him the bolt, he'll modify it and drop it in the mail right back to me at no charge.  It's nice to find a manufacturer who will do what is necessary to make their product work.  He agreed that it was nice I had no problem when I ran a couple cylinders of BP Schofield and Colt through it a couple weeks ago.  No shit!

So, this one will be out of action for a couple of weeks, but it sure beats the alternative.

Thanks again for the heads up.  GF

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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2013, 12:01:41 PM »
I just got off the phone with the gunsmith who said to mail him the bolt, he'll modify it and drop it in the mail right back to me at no charge.  It's nice to find a manufacturer who will do what is necessary to make their product work.  He agreed that it was nice I had no problem when I ran a couple cylinders of BP Schofield and Colt through it a couple weeks ago.  No shit!

So, this one will be out of action for a couple of weeks, but it sure beats the alternative.

Thanks again for the heads up.  GF

Hi GrayFox, glad it worked out well for you. That's probably the best approach rather than trying to fix it yourself. I was a bit cocky doing my last gun were I took off too much metal off the bolt leg and changed the timing. It was good that I had a back up bolt part where I then took my own advice to go slow.

When you get the modified bolt back retest and check timing. Let us know how well the revolver works after the mod.

Even with an easy fix from Taylor, I'm glad that we raised this issue to our Remington 1858 community.

Regards,
Richard 
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GrayFox

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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2013, 10:32:42 AM »
The bolt went out in yesterday's mail.  I'll report back once I've got it back and installed.  Thanks again for the timely information.  GF

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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2013, 12:37:54 PM »
Question;
Would it not be prudent to Taylor's to send a modified bolt along with a new cylinder?
Cost would be minimal.
Perhaps someone should suggest this to them.
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ssb73q

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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2013, 06:38:47 AM »
Question;
Would it not be prudent to Taylor's to send a modified bolt along with a new cylinder?
Cost would be minimal.
Perhaps someone should suggest this to them.

Hi Captainkirk, the timing is set by the manufacturer by setting bolt leg length when they set up the pistol. While I must admit that all my Piettas seemed to have no final bolt leg fitting modification, they could have. IMO by using the owner's own bolt Taylor guarantees revolver timing will remain the same, my conjecture.

Regards,
Richard
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ssb73q

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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2013, 02:25:39 PM »
Hi, another source for Pietta 1858 parts is Taylor. The Taylor parts appear to be ~1/2 the cost of VTI.

Regards,
Richard
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ssb73q

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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2013, 05:47:56 AM »
Hi, yesterday I received my Pietta 1858 spare parts kit from Cabela's that was on sale. Just for grins I took the bolt out of the package and installed it in my newest Pietta 1858 5-1/2". To my surprise the timing was perfect and that the bolt remained locked up on hammer fall. If this bolt had been in the revolver, the 1858 would have been perfect out of the box.

I removed the bolt to examine it an learn why it worked when 5 other bolts required modification. The Cabela's parts bolt had bolt legs much thinner than the other bolts. It also had nicely rounded edges that allow the bolt leg to pop up on the hammer cam and stay there on hammer fall.

I guess this shows that there will be variability for successful out of the box installation of the Taylor (R&D) conversion cylinder on current production Pietta 1858's.  :9)

Regards,
Richard
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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2013, 06:04:41 AM »
Hi Richard, great to hear ya got that fix!  ;)
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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2013, 12:46:03 PM »
Hi, yesterday I received my Pietta 1858 spare parts kit from Cabela's that was on sale. Just for grins I took the bolt out of the package and installed it in my newest Pietta 1858 5-1/2". To my surprise the timing was perfect and that the bolt remained locked up on hammer fall. If this bolt had been in the revolver, the 1858 would have been perfect out of the box.

I removed the bolt to examine it an learn why it worked when 5 other bolts required modification. The Cabela's parts bolt had bolt legs much thinner than the other bolts. It also had nicely rounded edges that allow the bolt leg to pop up on the hammer cam and stay there on hammer fall.

I guess this shows that there will be variability for successful out of the box installation of the Taylor (R&D) conversion cylinder on current production Pietta 1858's.  :9)

Regards,
Richard


I'm glad to hear this too, I ordered the parts kit the other day just to have some backups, but I'll be trying out that bolt first thing.

I had a bit different problem with the Taylor cylinder that caused a lockup when I lowered the hammer from full to half cock.
Had to drop the cylinder out of the gun to free the hammer and trigger up.

I was able to duplicate the counter rotation issue by backing out the trigger spring screw a bit but otherwise I didn't run into that with everything nice and tight.

Just as a side note, the pistol does not lock up when lowering to half cock with the original black powder cylinder.

Keep shooting,
Neil

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Re: Problem with Pietta 1858 and Taylor (R&D) Cylinder
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2013, 05:52:01 AM »

I'm glad to hear this too, I ordered the parts kit the other day just to have some backups, but I'll be trying out that bolt first thing.

I had a bit different problem with the Taylor cylinder that caused a lockup when I lowered the hammer from full to half cock.
Had to drop the cylinder out of the gun to free the hammer and trigger up.

I was able to duplicate the counter rotation issue by backing out the trigger spring screw a bit but otherwise I didn't run into that with everything nice and tight.

Just as a side note, the pistol does not lock up when lowering to half cock with the original black powder cylinder.

Keep shooting,
Neil

Hi Neil, the simple mechanism of a single action isn't designed to allow the revolver to go to half-cock from full cock. Trying to do so is very hard on the internal parts. The bolt will not retract on going from full-cock to-half cock.

The single action should only be put in half-cock from the hammer down position. If you want to go to half-cock from full cock, hold the hammer back with your thumb at full cock and pull the trigger. Let the hammer down slowly until it is near the cylinder nipple, then with your finger off the trigger pull the hammer back until you hear the trigger enter the half-cock notch of the hammer. Let the hammer go forward slightly to ensure that the revolver is now solidly at half-cock.  :9)

Regards,
Richard
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