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Author Topic: Cylinder movementNew guy  (Read 520 times)

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Offline Deadhorse

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Cylinder movementNew guy
« on: April 24, 2019, 06:13:17 PM »
New here- but been shooting black since the 1970's. Just got a new pietta Remington New Army and after cleaning and deburring noticed that when pulling the hammer back the cylinder and pin move up and down at least .010 in both directions, is this normal for these. none of my Old Army"s move that much. My first post here or any where else. please forgive any procedural errors.

Deadhorse

Offline Hawg

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Re: Cylinder movementNew guy
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2019, 07:32:14 PM »
No it's not normal.
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Offline G Dog

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Re: Cylinder movementNew guy
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2019, 09:06:08 PM »
No it's not normal.

Nope.

Welcome to the forum, Deadhorse.

Does the cylinder pin fit the frame's fore and aft channels securely?

Does the cylinder pin fit the center channel of the cylinder, any looseness?

Does the cylinder wobble on half cock or just when you thumb the hammer back?

Any unusual wear on the cylinder ratchets (blue rubbed off already)?


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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Cylinder movementNew guy
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2019, 12:23:17 AM »
Welcome DH!  Don't fret overmuch on procdpedure. (or spelling)

I would differ only somewhat with my colleagues here.  Ten thou is not rare for radial play.  I have an older Lyman branded Uberti that's far worse though, and so I won't shoot it until I've fabricated a new arbor.  Either your arbor (cylinder pin) is a bit loose in the frame, or it is a bit loose in the cylinder, or both.

Part of why you notice it is the typically brutal spring tension on the bolt.  It's more than enough to lift the cylinder and the arbor together.  So yes; it's a thing.  Modern gun makers don't put near as much tension on that spring as the Italian repros have, so for instance my far sloppier Taurus mod 85 cylinder doesn't bob up and down simply because there isn't enough bolt spring tension to make that happen.

The other guys probably don't notice it, either because their eyesight isn't what it used to be or their guns are dirty.   :P

Ten thousandths total excursion would mean five either direction.  That could be two and half in the frame and two and a half in the cylinder, and now that doesn't seem so terrible doesn't it.  I wouldn't be too concerned.

Though of course we'd want our guns to be superb examples of modern, state-of-the-art machining, hand-fitting and finishing prowess, for three hundred dollars or less for a boutique firearm, basic logic says it isn't going to happen.  Welcome to the concept if a kit gun that'll usually shoot OK as it comes out of the box.  I'd probably keep it.  If you sent it back you might get one with a nice tight cylinder and some other slightly irritating but not overly serious problem.  If you're extremely lucky you might get one that appears OK all around, only to find the hand spring broken after two dozen shots, the loading lever latch lug loose, or sights that need a lot of adjustment, etc., etc., etc.  Don't even get me started (though you already did).

I see it like this; if a current production Ruger is 6 or 7 hundred dollars, and they're OK, and they can sell them that cheap because they plant to make a million of them, then how good can a gun be that they'll sell one tenth as many, or less, in the same time, and which must sell for 300 or less or they'd sell only a few hundred or a few thousand?  So it's all about meeting a price point, or so they see it.  Ruger cancelled the Old Army as soon as Bill's corpse was cold, because I assume they weren't making profit on it, and it was a more expensive gun.

Send yours to me and for a thousand dollars I'll blueprint it for you and the action will feel awesome, the timing will be right, the action springs won't break and it'll shoot to point of aim.  But it'll be a six month wait at least, 'cause I have other things I need to do to actually make a living.  See?

OK so here's where I post the beating of the dead horse icon!     }),

Don't let jerks like me discourage you though!  Have fun with that new gun in spite of me.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Hawg

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Re: Cylinder movementNew guy
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2019, 02:32:18 AM »
The other guys probably don't notice it, either because their eyesight isn't what it used to be or their guns are dirty.   :P

Nope, my eyesight isn't that bad and my guns are clean and even my raggedy old PR doesn't have that much movement.
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Offline Mad Dog Stafford

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Re: Cylinder movementNew guy
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2019, 08:00:08 AM »
Hi Deadhorse, jump on over to the "Welcome Wagon" and tell us a few things about yourself.

How did you find this Great Forum?
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Online Captainkirk

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Re: Cylinder movementNew guy
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2019, 12:13:33 PM »
Yeah, I'm in the camp of "excessive". I have 7 Remmies of various flavors (8, if you count the Santa Barbara on layaway) and none of them have .010 play. Not saying Omni is wrong by any means; he makes a good point including the eyesight bit, but seems to me to be more tolerance than I would prefer. He's probably correct about sending it back though...luck of the draw. I would use it as a "project gun" as he suggested and begin making your corrections one at a time. First question; is the bolt head actually entering the cylinder notches, or giving them a "wedgie", as Pettifogger puts it so succinctly? If so, the cylinder will be shoved up to it's upper limit instead of being locked into battery by the bolt. The bolt should be able to enter the notches completely and bottom out, while maintaining zero play (the bolt head has one flat side and one tapered side). It's relatively easy to pull the cylinder, take off the trigger guard and pull the bolt out and check this with bolt and cylinder in-hand. The bolt head should enter the slot, bottom out, and have no clearance when bottomed, also look for peened edges on the notches and/or a drag line on the cylinder, both symptoms of either improper bolt head sizing, timing, or both. Since the Remmy doesn't use leades on the notches a la Colt, timing has to be precise to avoid either condition. You can watch the bolt head using a flashlight as you bring the cylinder into battery; it should snap up and lock just as the notch comes into position.
Again, as Omni mentioned, for the price these things sell for Pietta can't take the time to fine-tune and precision time these things. That's up to you, if you're a DIY kinda guy, or experts like .45 Dragoon, if you're not.
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Cylinder movementNew guy
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2019, 02:53:35 PM »
I like a Remington bolt to drop about one bolt-width ahead of the cylinder notch.  If the bolt spring tension is reduced to a sane level, it won't dig into the cylinder like it might otherwise, but of course it'll leave a short drag line where a lead would be.  Ideally I'd build a jig to do what Yolla did and cut leads (AKA "approaches") into all my Remington cylinders, but I'm too lazy and/or have too many other pending projects as it is.  I've had new Uberti and Pietta Colts with the bolt dropping ahead of the leads, or along one edge of the lead, and they'll end up just as ugly as any Remington you ever saw unless the bolt head profile and the timing are adjusted.  One Remington I have eases the bolt into the cylinder (bolt doesn't "drop" at all, with the cylinder installed), and that's fine too so long as it isn't contacting the cylinder too soon (and it isn't).  So I've left it alone.

All of that is neither here nor there with regard to the Original Post, but some of us like to ramble...

Some people have made oversized arbors, which is what my old Lyman will need, and others have pressed bushings into the ends of the cylinder, depending on where the bulk of the play is happening.  If you can wiggle the arbor up, down and sideways while it's fully inserted in the frame, then the arbor is loose in the frame.  Most of not all of them will do that to some degree though.  If you wanted it absolutely tight I can imagine an arbor with tewo tapered sections on it, and the frame have coresponding tapers.  That'd do it, AND it would make arbor removal after a long shooting session impossible without a hammer and punch.  They have to have some amount of clearence so the parts can move and do what they're supposed to do.

If the cylinder is loose on the arbor and the arbor is tight in the frame, then the cylinder bushings would be one way to fix it.  That, or a larger arbor which fits the cylinder, then reaming of the frame to accommodate the larger arbor.

This brings up the question of whether you intend to ever use more than one cylinder for the same gun.  That will partly dictate the solution.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline G Dog

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Re: Cylinder movementNew guy
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2019, 03:42:38 PM »
If I bought a new Rem that does what Deadhorse describes it would be returned to sender ASAP.  Life’s too short to put up with defective new guns.

Never thought to look before but now I’ve examined my three well used Pietta Remington's looking for what is described in the OP and I detect nothing of up/down movement of pin or cylinder. 

Send it back, Deadhorse.  Get a good one.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".   
                                        Ephesians 6:12  (KJV)