1858 remington forum

Author Topic: Loading Lever Retainer  (Read 1087 times)

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Offline Hawg

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2019, 10:45:42 AM »
I asked for input on reattaching the Loading Lever Retainer.   Don't understand how this thread became a chain fire topic.

Pietta replied to my email stating they recommend JB weld.  Reckon I'll try that.

Threads have a way of meandering off topic. We're not strict about staying on topic as a lot of forums are.
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2019, 03:34:48 PM »
 (Ordguy, yeah; thread drift is common hereabouts.  Let us know how the JB Weld holds up over time.

Sourmash; I believe the chainfire log is just that; a log, as in, "this happened at this time".  A way to keep track of this rare phenomenon.

To all ye who believe that shaving a ring is a guarantee that no flash channel can exist from the front; that is an assumption based on the assumption that the chamber is perfect.  See the drawing in the image below.  Furthermore, every Remington ever made will have a tendency to ding its chambers due to the geometry of the loading lever/link/ram setup, especially when loading some conicals, or seating hard near the chamber mouth.  I exaggerated it in the drawing of course, but if you look close enough at any Remington that's had a lot of use, you will find minor incursions at the chamber mouth.  That and the "crushed powder train phenomenon" I believe account for all chainfires.  Also, look at most old originals that had a lot of use and, like an old piston engine, I believe you'll find that the chambers will be worn oval from the loading ram, even down to some depth below the cylinder face.

And...since the thread is about a loading lever, and since the loading lever/link geometry is responsible for many a dinged chamber, the thread drift isn't really all that serious. (I did NOT bring up the mating habits of the South American Wombat)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 03:59:15 PM by Omnivore »
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

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Offline G Dog

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2019, 05:43:03 PM »
No wombats?  OK, in that case I’ll forego my effort-post on 17th Century German Philology here and just mention that messy undisciplined powder pouring habits are a main cause of chains - this regardless of the state of the loading lever catch. 

I try to keep the loading lever screw (plural for Colt’s) tight enough so the lever does not flop down from gravity during the loading process.  Not snapping the catch to the retainer for every chamber loaded keeps those two parts low-miles - in a manner of speaking.  Better to release and snap it closed just once than six times for each load up.

Now, about Grimmelshausen’s Simplicissimus  ...    ...   just funnin, again. ::)
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Offline Hawg

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2019, 05:44:36 PM »
(Ordguy, yeah; thread drift is common hereabouts.  Let us know how the JB Weld holds up over time.

Sourmash; I believe the chainfire log is just that; a log, as in, "this happened at this time".  A way to keep track of this rare phenomenon.

To all ye who believe that shaving a ring is a guarantee that no flash channel can exist from the front; that is an assumption based on the assumption that the chamber is perfect.  See the drawing in the image below.  Furthermore, every Remington ever made will have a tendency to ding its chambers due to the geometry of the loading lever/link/ram setup, especially when loading some conicals, or seating hard near the chamber mouth.  I exaggerated it in the drawing of course, but if you look close enough at any Remington that's had a lot of use, you will find minor incursions at the chamber mouth.  That and the "crushed powder train phenomenon" I believe account for all chainfires.  Also, look at most old originals that had a lot of use and, like an old piston engine, I believe you'll find that the chambers will be worn oval from the loading ram, even down to some depth below the cylinder face.

And...since the thread is about a loading lever, and since the loading lever/link geometry is responsible for many a dinged chamber, the thread drift isn't really all that serious. (I did NOT bring up the mating habits of the South American Wombat)

I agree with you on the chain fires coming from the front. You can't make me believe they come from the nipple end. I'll have to experience that for myself to believe it.

South American Wombats? (^h Now I'm confused.  )L$
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2019, 06:28:22 PM »
Hawg; 'course, if you did experience a chainfire, how would you know, for sure, which end it was ignited from?

Someday I must attempt to duplicate Fuhring's experiments, in which he says he can induce a chainfire at will;
http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2Mobile.html

The closest I've come (Fuhring has done this too, and I've done it a lot), is to fire the gun with adjacent chambers loaded but un-capped, and I've never gotten a chainfire, even with a Walker loaded with 50 grains of real BP (said to ignite more easily than subs) and a conical.  Also, and I've done this too; run a swaged .454 ball into a .450 sizing die (Uberti Remington chamber diameter) and back out, and you'll see portions of the ball around its equator that haven't been touched.

Another test would be to load ever other chamber, leaving the chambers in between Un-loaded, pinch oversized caps and place them on UN-loaded, adjacent chambers and see if they've been ignited after firing.  In this manner, the notion of being unable to determine which end a chainfire is coming from would be partially controlled for.  The opposite would be to cover adjacent nipples with tight-fitting, empty caps.  the bottom line though would be to see if you can indice a chainfire anytime you want by "dirty loading" (making a "crushed powder train") as Fuhring describes.

All of the above of course ignores my treatise on dinged or burred chamber mouths, which I am convinced are the culprit in instances where people describe specific guns as being prone to chainfire while other guns, loaded using the same techniques, are not.  They're looking at the shaving of a nice ring as being "proof" of a gas seal whereas I am here to tell you; that's no guarantee at all.

This isn't rocket science.  Well OK; it is rocket science, but it's fairly simple rocket science.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Hawg

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2019, 06:49:42 PM »
Hawg; 'course, if you did experience a chainfire, how would you know, for sure, which end it was ignited from?

I know everybody has heard the story and is tired of it but I have one Remington that will chain every time if you don't use wads or lube. I can lube the balls and leave all the caps off except one and it wont chain. I have fired other guns with just the one cap and they don't chain but they also don't chain with no lube either. So something is wonky with that one cylinder. I bought the gun new and it shaves a good ring.
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Offline SourMashII

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2019, 08:23:27 AM »
 Maybe it was the ball end. Went down the rabbit hole of linked page to linked page the other day, ended up on a Bible of sorts, his firm belief was “nipple end” made sense.
Gun is a target model, I’ve had for 5? Years.  Bet it hasn’t seen a hundred rounds.  :-X

He also suggested cartridges made of flash paper, with an acetone smokeless powder combination for the gum or mastic used to seal the cartridges.

Might take that one with a grain of salt....
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Offline Hawg

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2019, 09:44:10 AM »
Maybe it was the ball end. Went down the rabbit hole of linked page to linked page the other day, ended up on a Bible of sorts, his firm belief was “nipple end” made sense.
Gun is a target model, I’ve had for 5? Years.  Bet it hasn’t seen a hundred rounds.  :-X

He also suggested cartridges made of flash paper, with an acetone smokeless powder combination for the gum or mastic used to seal the cartridges.

Might take that one with a grain of salt....

I've used tea bags with white glue and no nitrating. They're tougher than cigarette papers, they burn clean and a standard cap blows through them.
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2019, 09:50:28 AM »
Quote
He also suggested cartridges made of flash paper, with an acetone smokeless powder combination for the gum or mastic used to seal the cartridges.


Hmm.  Yeah; whatever it takes to make cartridge-making more expensive, difficult and dangerous I suppose.  Plain old perm papers or plain cigarette papers, and glue stick have worked for me, and many others, for years, but why settle for what works, and is easy, cheaper and safer?   ;)
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline joewolz

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2019, 05:08:54 PM »
For the walker, I use a period correct zip tie

Offline SourMashII

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2019, 07:23:36 PM »
Hawg; 'course, if you did experience a chainfire, how would you know, for sure, which end it was ignited from?

Someday I must attempt to duplicate Fuhring's experiments, in which he says he can induce a chainfire at will;
http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2Mobile.html


hey.. that's the fellers site I was on that lead me to believe nipple end was the "smoking gun"...
and then here.. this made me question "maximum pressures" :

 "Today is April 2, 2017.  Last week I tried to make up some flash paper cartridges for my planned trip to the shooting range.  While trying to make up several tubes, I discovered something about flash paper.  All my ordinary glues would absolutely not stick to the nitrated paper.....

     After I got home I tried more experiments to try to get some kind of glue to stick to the flash paper when I remembered that when I was a kid we would use a cellulose nitrate dope to glue on the paper of model airplane wings.  In addition, in the early days of photography, a solution containing silver nitrate and cellulose nitrate dissolved in some liquid (called collodion)  would be spread over glass plates, and then the photograph would be taken and immediately developed.  The very first smokeless powder (powder B) was made from dried collodion sheets cut into small pieces.  I once read that collodion was made from lightly nitrated cellulose nitrate that was dissolved in either to make collodion, so tried to dissolve some old smokeless powder (cellulose nitrate) in either.  It didn't work, the powder didn't dissolve.  I then tried acetone and sure enough, the powder dissolved making a dope that would stick the flash paper together.  Either the article was wrong or my memory is at fault, but either doesn't work, it's acetone that dissolves cellulose nitrate. I have yet to make any more cartridges, but now I know that it can be done."
( http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Cartridges.html )

Is this not suggesting that acetone and smokeless be used to make a "dope" or "mastic" to ensure the flash paper cartridge stays together? Did I completely mis-read that?
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Offline Hawg

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2019, 08:19:07 PM »
Geojohn  (?^ (?^ (?^ (?^ (?^ (?^
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Offline Cross Plains Drifter

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2019, 12:34:15 PM »
my revolver is the Pietta 1858 Remington. No dovetail, just a tiny small round spot on underside of barrel.  I'm leaning toward a dab of J-B Weld in the round place.

If it's good and clean and you clamp it while it sets it might hold but silver solder would be the better solution.

my bad.....I assumed it was a Uberti.......

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Offline SourMashII

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Re: Loading Lever Retainer
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2019, 06:14:44 PM »
My mastic failed 15 total shots in. I do not recommend the clear gel like JB Superweld.
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