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Author Topic: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces  (Read 1667 times)

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Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2019, 07:00:09 PM »
It is an interesting topic for sure!! I'll try and get my pics ready for the bolt "massaging". Oh, and never say never .  .  .  .(maybe not a 454 but definitely a good 2nd tier 45C load !  Lol!!  For the hunters /target shooters .  .  . )

Mike
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2019, 03:38:46 PM »
I faced both ends of the Cylinder on a Uberti 3rd Dragoon the other day, and faced the frame recoil ring, all using the same techniques I've shown already, but this time I took all surfaces down to 100% new.  It runs nice and true now.

For the Walker, to control the wedge insertion depth, I was torn as to the idea of drilling out the end of the arbor and installing a screw, so I decided to try adding a dab of silver solder to the front end of the wedge slot in the arbor (hard solder that is, not to be confused with a soft solder containing some small portion of silver), then filed it to create some engagement surface.  I took it out and fired 24 shots of the hottest loads I use (45 grains O.E., lube cookie, 225 grain bullet, and 50 grains O.E., lube cookie, 200 grain bullet).

After cleaning and reassembly, there was no sign of change in the barrel fit (cylinder gap).  So far so good I guess, but 24 shots is only 24 shots.  I may try the same technique on the 3rd Dragoon after firing this Walker some more.  It's easy, anyone can do it, and it's readily adjustable using a file.  If it turns out to be stable enough under protracted hard use, then it seems to me that it would be preferable to drilling and tapping.

Another thing about running the Walker at full power; it burns so much powder (at 50 grains that's 66% more), and the arbor diameter is so large (a given degree of fouling means more torque is needed to overcome it as the arbor diameter is increased), together mean that I still don't have a way to keep the gun running for more than a few cylinders full before the cylinder gets very hard to turn.  It currently has a ~.004" cyl gap.  I've run it plenty with a ~.001" to .002" gap, and it's not a lot different.  A greased groove bullet with a lube cookie behind it is still not enough.  Maybe I should mash a lube pill over the top of the bullet too.  Then again it's not a big deal to knock out the wedge, pull the cylinder, then wipe and re-lube the arbor either.  Maybe I should try T7 or some other sub in the Walker?

A Remington I can shoot all day with Olde E. powder, or Pyrodex, or Goex, and a lube cookie under each bullet, and with regular blow-downs it keeps right on running.

In the meantime I further lightened the bolt spring in the 3rd Dragoon by thinning it on the compression side of the leaf, and upon 45 D's advice I thinned the flexing leg (cam engagement leg) of the bolt.  Oh yeah; much improvement in the hammer movement, both directions!  It's easier to cock, and more efficient as it falls.  What's not to like?  It feels like a real revolver now (that is, until you start to foul it up at the range).

Both still need cap rakes, but I gotta say; I don't believe the big Colts will ever come close to running like a Remington.  Or rather; if it's possible I have yet to see how.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

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Offline LonesomePigeon

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2019, 06:45:58 PM »
 This is a great thread. I was thinking about an alternative to soldering the wedge slot, when you need to move the wedge slot back. Could you cut a small verticle slice at each end of the wedge slot and then insert a hard steel shim into the verticle slices? That seems to me like it would give a great deal of strength to the wedge slot.

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2019, 12:31:55 AM »
LP; I'm not sure I understand.  I did consider shimming it, but the only way I could think to do it, in a manner that would keep the shim in place during repeated disassembly and reassembly, would be to bend the ends of the shim forward over the arbor, and of course in that case you'd need to cut short, lengthwise slots in the arbor in front of the wedge slot, so as to have a space for the ends of the shim to bend into.  Others have shimmed one side of the wedge to make it wider.  That would be easier, but it would show (if that's a concern).  I've also gone to the trouble of fabricating a new, wider wedge from scratch, so there are of course several ways to skin that cat, so to speak.

Drilling the end of the arbor and inserting a button, with a head on it nearly the diameter of the arbor to control barrel/cylinder gap, or drilling and threading the end of the arbor and inserting a screw are both mentioned by others.

The screw version of course allows the fine adjustment of the front end of the wedge slot in the arbor, thus controlling wedge insertion depth, while the "head" of the screw is filed to control the cylinder gap.  I imagined a button as a shim in front of the arbor to control cylinder gap, having also a threaded hole through it, such that wedge insertion depth could be controlled independently by turning the center screw through the button and into the front of the arbor slot.  The button would serve as a lock nut.  That was my plan until I decided that I'd want a nice, centered hole for tapping, which would also be very true in alignment with the arbor axis.  Maybe it's not terribly important to have that kind of precision there but once the thought of dabbing a bit of silver solder in there presented itself I went with it.  I already a button shim for controlling cylinder gap, so all I needed was to reduce wedge insertion depth (widen the wedge or shim the front of the arbor slot) to make it work.  I opted for hard solder as a "shim".

I'm not saying it's the best method.  Mike, 45 Dragoon is very enthusiastic about drilling, tapping and using a screw to serve both the purposes of controlling cylinder gap and wedge depth.

Any method which results in a repeatable and proper cylinder gap, when the wedge is tapped in tight, pulling the barrel hard into the arbor, and which retains consistent cylinder gap over a long period of time and a lot of shooting, is of course a success.  Therefore I cannot call this a success until after a LOT of shooting, but if it holds up in a Walker over a couple of hundred or so, full power shots then I'd think it could be safe to say that it will hold up in the smaller guns over the course of firing a lot more shots.

There are two concerns, and only two, that I could come up with regarding this method;  one is the compressibility, or mailability, of the silver solder.  I don't expect it to be an issue, for if I did I wouldn't have done it.  That solder is harder than a typical bronze, and besides; with careful observation and filing, one can achieve more surface engagement with the wedge, probably, than most of the factory guns have, and a lot more than some.  The other concern would be the heat treat of the arbor steel.  Silver soldering takes place at temperatures well above those needed for tempering, so any heat treat the arbor originally had will have been altered significantly, and right at the thinnest, weakest and presumably highest stress portion of the arbor.  Again; if I were very concerned (and this is coming from someone who's worked with these materials intimately for many years) I wouldn't have done it.  So it comes down to testing, testing, testing, and measuring, measuring, measuring the cylinder gap along the way, for if there's any give in the system it will show up as a widening cylinder gap.  And by the way I didn't let the steel cool slowly, as one would do when tempering.  Nor did I plunge quench it as one would do for hardening, but I cooled it "rather rapidly".  I suppose I could do a hardness test on it, now that I think about it, and compare it to the unaffected part of the same arbor.

I do have a baseline in all of this though; in utter contradiction of the many assertions on the interwebs telling us that a Wakler will loosen if fired with a lot of full power loads, mine absolutely has not, and I've fired it a lot.  That said, I did have a proper, hard fit between arbor and barrel all that time.  The rumors, if any were ever true, must have come from the loosey-goosey factory Ubertis which I could see battering themselves.  All I've done lately is true the cylinder and recoil ring, set the barrel back slightly more in accordance, and silver solder-shim the slot so as to keep the factory wedge.  Now all I can do is fire it a lot more and see what happens.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2019, 06:34:48 AM »
It seems a lot of folks get the same idea and no matter how many times I stress this point, it doesn't "connect". So, this isn't a rant or scolding aimed at anybody, I guess I just need to explain myself better so, here goes.

Correcting the arbor length and having an adjustable wedge bearing are two totally different " stand alone " exercises.

 1.    The arbor length fix I use is by fitting a stainless steel plug IN THE ARBOR HOLE. I don't add anything to the end of the arbor at all. The plug is fitted so that it is a few thousandths too long. This allows me to correct the now "too long" plug by removing material from the end of the arbor and "zero in" on my .0025"-.003" barrel/cyl clearance.

         To put it another way, I view the arbor length problem as if the arbor HOLE  is too deep so I "fill in" the hole with a stainless steel plug. I fit a plug that is slightly too long so that I can easily reach my desired bbl/cyl clearance by removing material from the end of the arbor.  It takes much less time to accurately dress the end of the arbor to "sneak up" on my clearance than trying to make the "perfect length plug".  I hope this makes sense .  .  .  . 

2.    When correcting the arbor length with the above method, the wedge slot will open slightly which will leave you with a wedge that is now too narrow  or almost too narrow which will give you minimum wedge life as far as wear is concerned. To correct this problem, I install (by drilling and tapping) a set screw that can (and will) EXTEND INTO THE WEDGE SLOT and will make contact with the wedge.     ***Absolutely nothing can be protruding from the end of the arbor or it would interfere with the corrected arbor hole depth.***  Did y'all catch that?! The arbor end is left  "as is" .  It has been fitted to the arbor hole. Because of that, NOTHING can be " sticking out " past the end of the arbor. Besides, I don't like seeing "stuff" added to the arbor. I like them to look "normal" when the barrel assy is removed, it looks more professional ( you don't want everyone seeing your "repair").
   
   So, now we have a 1/4" set screw with the end ground flat (and polished) to act as the bearing surface. This allows you to have your wedge in the position of "as new", half way in or whatever you desire. It's an " adjustable " wedge bearing. You won't need another wedge. You won't have to add "stuff" to the wedge or anywhere else to get a good wedge fit ('cause it's "adjustable").  Using blue thread locker gives the screw adjustability while maintaining the set position.

 I want to reiterate, this is absolutely not pointed at anyone in particular but rather an attempt to finally clear up how I correct a couple of "shortcomings " in our Italian offerings. This isn't to be taken as THE way to fix these things, it's just the way I do the correction. It is fairly easy, repeatable, reliable, accurate, has proven a good setup over time, and fits a good "time line" in the shop.

Mike
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« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 06:44:13 AM by 45 Dragoon »

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2019, 10:39:04 AM »
45 D; thanks for clarifying.  Yes, my Ubertis have a button down in the barrel's arbor hole.  Others do it somewhat differently, but the concept is the same.  I've made a removable button which can be tweaked right down to the thousandth.  When everything is all set, the button can be permanently secured in the barrel hole using a dab of epoxy.  In other cases I've made the button with a tight friction fit in the hole, and threaded it in the center so I can use a threaded puller to get it out.  Same idea except for the means of securing the button in the barrel.

Is the 1/4" wedge screw for the Walker/Dragoon, or for the Army/Navy arbor, or both?  So actually there are three arbor sizes; the pocket frame guns, the Army/Navy and the Walker/Dragoon.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2019, 12:11:00 PM »
Hey Omni !!
  Understand what you're saying, I just do my method mainly for times sake and I've done it so many times now it's just part and parcel to the service.

 I use the 1/4"x28 set screw for everything but the pocket size guns. Pockets (small size) get a #10x32 set screw because the arbor dia. is so small. The same 10x32 set screw is used for the action stop in all but the Remies. The Remies get a #6x 32 for the action stop. The same #6x32 is the size S.S.screw used for the cap posts. This allows me to have 3 sizes for all models of cap guns (that I work on).

1/4" x 28 set screw  - adjustable wedge bearing for Walkers/Dragoons, Armys/Navys
#10 x 28  set screw -      ".                ".          ".           ".   Pocket/Police/baby open tops as well as action stops for all O.Ts.
#6  x 28  S.S. screw -  cap post for all O.T.s and action stops for Remington's

Mike
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2019, 10:20:57 AM »
Mike; good info.  Thanks for sharing.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline G Dog

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2019, 12:39:34 PM »
My question doesn’t merit a separate thread but fits this one, topically. 

About barrel lug locating pins: I have a nice Pietta Griswold & Gunnison .36 from 2017 [CS] on which one of the barrel to frame locating pins is loose.  Before the wedge is fully installed the barrel will wobble.  After the wedge is pressed in the gun is tight and consistently accurate with proper gap.  Should I be concerned about that one loose pin?  Is this a case of “ain’t broke” or do I need to address this and install a new pin? 

Hawg has mentioned removing these pins with padded vice grips.  That sounds good and the one in question should come out like a loose tooth but I’ve not tried doing that, yet.  Fabricating my own is out of the question but these pins are easily available from VTI for cheap.  Should I set about replacing this pin or just not worry about it?  I have several Piettas and except for the Griswold none have this ‘loose pin’ feature.

If I do replace the pin should I expect a press fit / friction fit.  Will it tap in OK with a resin hammer?

Thanks guys.  This has been an exceptionally informative thread.
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Offline Hawg

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2019, 06:00:48 PM »
If it's tight with the wedge installed I wouldn't worry about it.
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2019, 09:31:35 PM »
I'd be inclined to fix it, if for no other reason than to support the not altogether popular theory that things should be made to work as well as the way they were designed to work.

I've yet to ever remove one of these pins, and it has been stated previously that not all of them are separate parts.

"Fabricating" would hardly be the term I'd use for "making" one.  That's going on the theory that if it comes out OK then all you'd need to do is use the right piece of drill rod, cut it to the right length, and put a slight chamfer at each end.  Maybe that's over-simplifying it though, being as I've never done it.

Things are usually super easy and simple.  People often tell me how simple this or that is to solve.  Especially those who have never done it and aren't going to.  My wife for example often critiques my work around the house, from her couch.  This professional advice is based on her vast experience in engineering acquired over decades of watching the thirty minute episodes of those "reality" home remodeling and decorating TV shows.  If I don't get things looking like a magazine cover in thirty minutes or less, I'm a blundering, stumbling fool worthy of sarcastic ridicule and dismissal.  Successfully completing the job weeks later is no means to redemption either, because an initial failure to make it perfect in under thirty minutes is after all a failure.

Politicians too, believe that the problems of 350 million people from all walks of life, diverse environments and in 350 million different situations are simple enough to solve collectively, by a handful of law graduates with political science minors from leftist/Jesuit colleges, so long as we give them total authority over everything.  Some people are even inclined to believe it!

So here's some really sound advice, in light of all the above; "How hard can it be, right?  I mean, what could possibly go wrong?"

A lot could, of course, but if I am unable to image or to foresee those problems then clearly they do not exist.  So my total lack of any imagination or experience grants to me the total authority to tell you to go ahead and do it.  I feeel you can do it, and to deny me my feelings is to deny my very humanity.

If you screw it up it is clearly your fault, because I told you, under the supreme authority of my feelings and lack of experience, that it would be simple and easy.   ;)
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Hawg

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2019, 09:58:00 PM »
Some of them are stepped, some of them are straight.  The straight ones are easy. The stepped ones have to have one half turned down. You can chuck your rod in a drill and turn it down with a file if it's not too hard.
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2019, 06:16:09 AM »
   I'm in favor of fixing it too (no offense Hawg) ! It's just my nature lol. As Omni pointed out, "How hard can it be?". The solution and method he suggested is how I'd do it  .  .  .  . if I wasn't going to do it many more times!!  I do run across the loose pin or missing pin (both pins on a couple of occasions!) now and then and rather than use my good drill bits ( good reason maybe to keep old ones! .  .  .  hmmm)  I keep a few 1/8" x 3' steel rods in stock as I make my hand pushrods out of the them and  the occasional locating pin.  Of  course, if the pin is present and is just loose, why not just degrease the hole and the pin and locktite it in?

  If it is a stepped pin like Hawg mentioned ,  his method is a sound one.  In fact, I've got a 1" bench belt sander that is a perfect stand-in for a file (it's a little faster too but there is a learning curve !),  and I use it daily for such "machining" tasks!

Mike
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Offline Captainkirk

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2019, 11:32:35 AM »
If not a stepped pin, you could try turning it around and putting the worn end in the frame to see if that helps. Stands to reason that most of the wear would be on the barrel bore rather than the pin, but you never know. Won't cost you anything to try.
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Offline Hawg

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Re: Removing safety pins, facing recoil surfaces
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2019, 12:42:30 PM »
   I'm in favor of fixing it too (no offense Hawg)

No offense taken. I have used needles out of trunnion bearings but not many people have a butt load of old U joints laying around.
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.