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Author Topic: A Sharps  (Read 4943 times)

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Offline Hawg

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2018, 10:22:04 PM »
You thinking of the cylindrical seal around the chamber?
Haven´t got it to budge and presume it´s in there once and for all. I´ve read that these bushings can be adjusted for depth though,but guess that will take a tool i simply don´t have.
If the floating plate on the actual block,the conant seal,that´s a semi tight fit to its cutout in the actual block..but it does come out. Made the mistake to leave this full of grease,which of course went into a basically solid mass as it got in contact with the burning blackpowder,thus keeping the seal from working/moving.



The chamber seal does require a tool to adjust. I was referring to the conant seal. I was wondering how hard it was to remove on an original that probably hasn't been removed in 100 years or so. I didn't think I was ever going to get the one on my repro off.
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Offline Racing

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2018, 04:16:23 AM »
Nah,that was pretty simple.
All in all rifle is in pretty good shape from that aspect. Pitting within for instance is at an absolute minimum. Actual block though (i guess?) shows a bit of wear like it´s been levered up and down,"dry fire practice",a lot. Wouldn´t call it sloppy,but..sorts of-which has been taken care of.

Giving this seal part some thought.. As i´ve understood it when both "systems" works as the inventor intended they are FAIRLY tight sealing?
In that case,why not cut the Conant plate for a copper sealing ring? Reasoning as such that copper is way softer and this would have an easier task sealing against the end of the barrel than pure steel?

I guess the correct manner in which to handle this would be to fab a completely new breech block,and then with a "lip" that protrudes into the barrel end,making for a labyrinth seal or similar.?
Then again...reinventing the wheel i guess and some things i guess are better left alone.
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Offline Racing

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2018, 04:57:42 PM »
Spent a good deal of time at the range today again and as the smoke clears (duh!) a few thoughts are starting to evolve.

First up that Conant seal sure works a crapload better when just clean. Oil and wiped down,done. In turn,seing the need for this seal to float/move it becomes quite imperative that grease is present within the cartridge envelope.
Sorry to say that brings that i doubt that the grease grooves of the bullet suffice,the cartridge needs more of the stuff to keep the fouling soft and smooth.
The old saying goes that you´re using enough grease when you can see a pattern of like a star at the muzzle. Be that as it may the point here is for the combustion gases to keep enough grease that that Conant seal sees an appreciable amount of it,WHICH in turn will improve the seal as well.

But. The mere idea of two flat surfaces out of steel being pushed together to form a gastight seal IS a tall order. In fact,i´d state...ain´t happening anytime soon.
Which really puts forth the REAL question,egg-hen,is a gastight seal really NEEDED. I´d say from a shooters perspective,no. If the fit of the breech block is tight enough within the breech and that Conant seal is doing its job..nah. That minor escape of pressure can be kept to such a minimum that i really doubt there´d be any appreciable infliction from a shooters perspective.

From a performance perspective though,that´s another matter. Of course any gas pressure being forced out the muzzle is going to help,and especially so as far as repeatability. SD as well as ES across a chrono in short i bet is a different matter,and when it comes to that..it all helps no doubt.

Then? What gives?

Could the Conant be improved upon? No doubt yes. Just look at what Hahn does,who´s considered "da man" when it comes to this,as well as the various replicas solution on the matter.
But in all honesty..at that rate i think that the correct solution would be a....brass or SIMILAR envelope cartridge. Seeing that that cartridge would be sans a primer,just a hole for the primer flame to protrude,it still leaves an issue of gas escape. That said though this orifice can be controlled and thus the pressure escape can be kept at a relative constant.
Couple that with a working Conant seal and i´d say you´re in business.

Polymers. Plastics. We know that black powder burns a whole heap hotter than smokeless,but we still use for instance shotgun cartridges out of plastics,polymers. Indeed "reinforced" by a brass foot ...but none the less.
Would a tool to make extruded such cartridges be the ticket? Point of mine here being that the actual strength of a plastic cartridge doesn´t really need to be all that..as it´s backed by a firing chamber and a breech block no matter.
Seeing the relatively lower pressures involved with blackpowder in turn i´m absolutely positive that such a cartridge could be extruded entirely from plastics.
We in such a case just need to be anal about size of the cartridge,fore and aft especially,to minimize the chance of through gas pressure ruptured cartridges.
Either that or...two part cartridges. A brass "foot" and then a plastic cylindrical envelope,just like a shotgun cartridge. If we leave these two parts floating vs each other we can in one blow basically nevermind any difference in chamber length for these guns.

Edit. Just spent a little time checking cartridge dimensions and i bet that either 28 gauge or 32 gauge cartridges could be used with a little effort.
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Offline prof marvel

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2018, 05:14:55 PM »
Seeing the relatively lower pressures involved with blackpowder in turn i´m absolutely positive that such a cartridge could be extruded entirely from plastics.
We in such a case just need to be anal about size of the cartridge,fore and aft especially,to minimize the chance of through gas pressure ruptured cartridges.
Either that or...two part cartridges. A brass "foot" and then a plastic cylindrical envelope,just like a shotgun cartridge. If we leave these two parts floating vs each other we can in one blow basically nevermind any difference in chamber length for these guns.

Edit. Just spent a little time checking cartridge dimensions and i bet that either 28 gauge or 32 gauge cartridges could be used with a little effort.
\
My Dear Racing -

I have found that the machined "solid brass" cartridges work sorta... but they do eat up a lot of powder space.

I have fabricated but have not yet shot cases made of plastic 28 ga shells and brass 28 ga shells.
I haven't had the time to get out with those things yet, since moving ... omg ten years ago? -  life kinda gets in the way of fun sometimes.

I just recently came across the box, so i'll post photos of them shortly.

yhs
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Offline Hawg

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2018, 10:38:04 PM »
What the good professor said. The brass cartridges do work but they cut the powder charge down to 50 grains or so. My repro shot like crap with 50 grains. 80 was good, ninety wasn't good at all but 100 was best of all. It just had so much flash from the breech block I didn't like it so I stuck with 80 which was the factory recommended charge.
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Offline Racing

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2018, 04:24:35 AM »
Uhu.
Thx for the intel both of you.

Yes. I presume the answer to this would be a shell/cartridge of some sorts and indeed it now seems that 28gauge such will be the ticket then.

Increasing capacity is a rather simple matter of reaming out chamber length and could be done at home seeing the advent of the modern reamer.
A regular battery powered drill,ample amounts of oil and easy does it will take care of that in no time. Seeing that a 28gauge shell will fit we can basically also make good use of its surely greater length.

To secure ignition on an 1859/-63 version,and thus be more confident in that the primer flame will protrude and run the distance,we just open the firing hole of the primer nipple up to approx the same diameter as its entry hole/anvil for the primer. Reduced diameter flame holes of a nipple will surely help reduce back pressure in our dear revolvers while it will hinder primer performance in the greater distance needed/traveled in a Sharps.
Seeing the "other" leaks within the Sharps design back pressure i bet is the least of our problems.
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Offline Hawg

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2018, 10:37:05 AM »
If you use the 28 gauge shell as is you will have to recess the breech for the rim but you probably already knew that.  I know my repro wasn't the same as a real Sharps but I never had an ignition problem with real bp. Ignition was instant with Swiss. Pyrodex was like a poorly timed flintlock. Pop..bang but they all did go off.
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Offline Racing

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2018, 05:13:44 PM »
Hawg.
I believe we need to dwell on that a little.

Yep,the rim indeed is an issue but more so than you might as first expect. A cartridge,no matter which,needs to register in SOME manner. As a true paper cartridge gun we make this happen by presenting the bullet to the rifling,which is less then optimum to be honest.
Albeit there´s an array of guns that register on what´s called a bore riding bullet,ie;the bullet physically enters the bore atop the rifling to an extent-often with a wider diameter drive band at its base,the issue with bore riders is that there´s a HEAP of development work as we still need to make sure at what depth that thing comes to a rest for instance and as long as we´re bound to a paper cartridge this can indeed basically end up all over the place,even though the bullet has entered the rifling within the bore.
Just look at the stock Chassepot cartridge. Replace that paper with brass..and we´ve got ourselves a completely different ballgame.

Better then to register the cartridge on..the actual cartridge casing,and the normal manners in which to do this is either with a rim at the cartridge base or at the angle of a bottle neck cartridge. Mark the word normal manner as there´s certainly a third way to and that is at the absolute front/mouth of a casing. 9mm para/luger..all the ACP rounds et al for instance.

This brings the question of the hen and the egg. If we settle on the 28 gauge cartridge,which i guess is wise from an economical POW,that rim is in essence a god send as far as registering the cartridge within the chamber. That rim will present us with a given "zero point",which we´re in dire need of.
Thus i for one at least find it a very minor trade off to ream or drill the chamber end out for said rim. In fact seeing the setup per se that cutout doesn´t even have to carry all that much precision,only real deal going on being that it is repeatable-which it´ll end up being almost no matter what. Basically all we need to do is make sure it´s deep enough to make the cartridges clear the breech block on closing.

The other way would be to have a defined edge in the chamber at the front of the cartridge casing,as long as we´re talking straight wall casings, which can certainly be done but that presents more of a mod hazzle IMO. No point chasing ones own tail when the rim´s already there.

There´s even both drillbits as well as reamers to handle this task,why it STILL is a project for the shade tree mechanic at home. These cutters have a hole in their center where you opt to install a bushing,in this case of the original chamber diameter. In other words the already existing chamber will be the pilot via said bushing for enlarging the chamber at its absolute rear,and again a regular battery powered powerdrill and loads of oil will suffice.

Worth it?
I´d vote yes here. The "non cartridge" Sharps are plentyfold and everywhere,albeit semi expensive if originals,and as such the mere noodling around needed with bullet,grease and powder at the range alone..
If we come up with a viable alternative here i vote that this alternative needs to pinpoint a few points.

First up. The mod needs to be cheap. People in general don´t like to spend one friggin penny more than needed. That cutter needed can be rented,and the specific pilot turned by your local shop at coffee change,they´re nothing special at all.
Second up,and this is where we´ve got our asses out back IMO..the 28 gauge casing isn´t exactly everywhere,at least not around here. But i guess they can be ordered online at nominal cost? TBH i have NO idea what they run as of current. Nor the "throw away" plastic ones or the "forever reloadable" brass ones.
Alternatives? Yes. Yes there is. For instance in cal 50 Alaskan,but then we´re IMO pointing the wrong direction again. Brass is sure available but ANYTHING but cheap. At the same time i bet those 50 Alaskan carry a thinner wall OTOH....
That said chamber depth indeed is an issue here too. Same place that´ll rent you that piloted drillbit will most likely carry reamers for rent too and elongating the chamber,which the Sharps will take EASY,isn´t all that much of a job in my world and can STILL be done at home in a vise.
Chamfering needed..ditto. This can be as simple as a steel ball that fits to chamber dimensions where you simply just apply valve grinding compound or similar. No biggie in that case either..so we´re still at the use of a regular vise.

Now. What´s more,for this to work we need to figure out some sort of crimper. We can´t very well have cartridges where the bullets insist on falling out. So some sort of very rudimentary crimping tool needs to be fabbed,and then preferably one that any shade tree guy could dream up "McGyver style". The simpler the better,no matter if cartridges are to be brass or plastic.
Plastic..guess glue could be made into a make do solution,but then..to what length?
So?
What would be the preferred direction here? The fabrication of a simple crimping tool for brass casings or glue for plastic?

Thoughts?
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Offline Hawg

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2018, 11:26:07 PM »
IMO it would have to be brass for the longevity of cases even tho crimping them will shorten the life of them. I reload plastic shotgun shells with bp but all I get is a couple of reloads before they're junk.
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Offline Racing

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2018, 02:46:15 AM »
You´ve got a point.

Took a look at the cartridges for the Smiths carbine yesterday.. Gonna fab a case out of Delrin and see where that takes me.
I´ll be back..
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Offline Len

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2018, 08:19:09 AM »
You´ve got a point.

Took a look at the cartridges for the Smiths carbine yesterday.. Gonna fab a case out of Delrin and see where that takes me.
I´ll be back..
I turned a couple of carts out of Deldrin three yrs ago. It was a failure. They crack. Need something more tensile. Have been thinking of casting 2-component silicone, the dental stuff. Will see.

Offline prof marvel

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2018, 12:53:13 PM »
The plastic 28 ga cases are nearly ideal for fit, both fitting the chamber, and holding the bullet somewhat firmly.

The brass 28 ga cases are extremely thin for use as a "rifle cartridge", and might actually need some sort of internal reinforcement sleeves.

I did try fabricating a case out of copper plumbing pipe using both self-made bases and a brass base from the plastic 28 ga case.

If one removes the movable breechplate it opens up space to add a ~ 1/8 " plate that can be milled for a rim and also act as an extractor.
My theoiry was that If one can achieve a breach seal with the cartridge, then the moveable breechplate is not as critical.
 
as mentioned, I have not tried shooting any yet.

yhs
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Offline G Dog

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2018, 01:29:12 PM »
I read in that article below that Smith’s originally used a rubber cartridge.  Would such a thing work on a Sharp’s too?





https://www.guns.com/2013/07/02/the-civil-war-smith-carbine-the-case-for-rubber/

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Offline prof marvel

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2018, 03:09:47 PM »
Ola Gdog -

I think that rubber or stiff hi-temp silicone ought to work...

here are some photos of my crap attempts

sharps-cart1 shows (lewft to right)
- 28ga plastic shell cut down to fit with .54 T/C Maxi
- copper plumbing nipple and cap parts
- cartridge made of copper pipe and cap with ringtail bullet loosely in place
- cartridge made of 28ga base and soldered copper pipe with Lee .54 improved HB minie
- commercial round-base machined brass cartridge with  ringtail bullet loosely in place
- commercial square-base machined brass cartridge with  ringtail bullet loosely in place
- 28ga plastic pulled from brass base


sharps-cart2 shows
- cut down 28ga plastic shell
- full size 28ga brass shell
- 50-70 govt brass
- .500 S&W brass
- 2 commercial machined brass cartridge s
- 2 ringtail bullets and a Lee Improve .54 HB Minie that was pushed thru the sharps .54 barrel


sharps-cart3 shows
- ribbed power piston high base plastic 28ga
- smooth AA skeet plastic 28ga
- same as above cut down
- AA plastic 28ga with T/C .54 Maxi - a nice tight fit
- the same 2 copper plumbing bits

I have shot the turned brass cases, and they work, are "middlin" accurate, best with the rightail christams tree bullets,
but you have to pound the bullets into the case :-(

"someday  i'll get around to finishing this experiment with the plastic or copper cases, but until then
it shoots pretty darn well with paper cartridges using HB minies (middlin acurate - ~ 6 in groups at 50 yds)
and the paper cartridges with the rigtails ( "good" accuracy at 100 yds ~ coffee can at 150 yds )

If I can't get  better accuracy out of the  .54 paper cutter, I plan to rebarrel to either a .50 papercutter or .45 papercutter.

but current proct is now a cast sharps reciever, 45-90 barrel (marked 45-70 - typical italian deep chamber) and all the finished guts & lock & wood & etc to mill/assemble . it has been a "go broke slowly" project, but I am still in cheaper than buying a completed rifle.

yhs
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Offline Racing

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Re: A Sharps
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2018, 06:06:54 AM »
The plastic 28 ga cases are nearly ideal for fit, both fitting the chamber, and holding the bullet somewhat firmly.

The brass 28 ga cases are extremely thin for use as a "rifle cartridge", and might actually need some sort of internal reinforcement sleeves.

I did try fabricating a case out of copper plumbing pipe using both self-made bases and a brass base from the plastic 28 ga case.

If one removes the movable breechplate it opens up space to add a ~ 1/8 " plate that can be milled for a rim and also act as an extractor.
My theoiry was that If one can achieve a breach seal with the cartridge, then the moveable breechplate is not as critical.
 
as mentioned, I have not tried shooting any yet.

yhs
prof marvel

Prof.
Clear this up for me will you. The breech moves up and down,how would omitting the Conant seal aid cartridge volume?
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