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General Black Powder Discussions => Powder => Topic started by: Omnivore on April 23, 2015, 02:04:26 AM

Title: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Omnivore on April 23, 2015, 02:04:26 AM
Since I've read here and elsewhere that this powder or that powder (maybe each one of them ever made) is the worst for fouling, I want to see if I can get a consensus.  Which one really, really is the worst?

Black powder or black powder substitutes only, please. We're talking percussion revolvers.  Current, commercial offerings only, too.  Nothing your cousin made up using sow piss, and nothing that's been discontinued.

I intend to show off like crazy and demonstrate that I get at least 100 shots with the scummiest, nastiest, dirtiest, stickiest, worst powder ever, so you'll quit focusing on the powder as the problem and start focusing on how to keep the gun properly lubed.  AND....to show just how easy it is!

If I end up being embarrassed and humbled, and made out to be a big-mouthed, blustering fool, well, that should be entertaining anyway, right?  All you have to do is NAME THAT POWDER.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: ssb73q on April 23, 2015, 06:01:37 AM
Hi Omnivore, that sounds like an excellent experiment.

My experience has the dirtiest BP powder I have ever used is Graf and Sons, see:
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5405

Heavy fouling, but it had the smallest standard deviation of any powder I chronographed, strange.

Almost as dirty and definitely quick fouling is the sub, Pryodex.

I will be surprised if you can get 10-20rds before cleaning is needed using those propellents.

BTW, this was my meager evaluation on fouling, see:
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=6410.msg101750#msg101750

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: mike116 on April 23, 2015, 06:51:30 AM
Pyrodex and fffg Goex are the dirtiest I have used.   I still prefer to shoot real BP so Goex is my preferred powder even though it's dirty.   Pyrodex is awful,  (sorry Johnnie)   I would say worse than Goex.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: mazo kid on April 23, 2015, 10:04:43 AM
Elephant powder used to have the reputation of being the dirtiest. I have shot some, but didn't do any comparison checks. Muzzle loading shooters were the ones complaining the most. Black cartridge shooters didn't complain as much, probably due to their fouling control.....blow tubes, wiping after a couple of shots, etc. The long range silhouette shooters were also getting smaller  standard deviation from it.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Gunslinger9378 on April 23, 2015, 12:35:19 PM
Dear Friends, (And especially Ominivore!)
            I feel that Omnivore has put his finger on the Central Theme behind this continueing controversy! Each of you has their own pet theory about the, "Beastliness," of this particular powder!  I question why, if you hate cleaning a gun THAT MUCH, why you all don't take up Needlepoint instead???  I have been shooting Black Powder revolvers for MANY YEARS and NO MATTER WHAT propellant you utilize to push the ball down the barrel, you are still going to have to clean the gun, as Sure As God Made Little Green Apples!  There is no getting away from this, "Simple Basic Fact!"
            In England I used to use Curtis & Harvet's Black Powder.  None of the many substitute propellants had been invented then, and pure black Powder I soon discovered, leaves behind it a fowling that is HARD! When using Holy Black in England, after a few shots, say abut two cylinders, it WAS necessary to pass a brush down the barrel of the revolver in order to maintain any semblance of accuracy!  Using my (So Called?) Duplex load of a ten grain of Holy Black, followed by a heftier charge of Pyrodex P, I CAN SHOOT ALL BLOODY AFTERNOON, AND NEVER HAVE TO PASS A BRUSH DOWN THE BARREL TO MAINTAIN AS MUCH ACCURACY, AS MY ALMOST 79 YEAR OLD HANDS CAN ACCOMPLISH!   
            Now a month or so ago, I mentioned Curtis and Harvey's Powder on the Forum, and another member, (I beleive it may have been G-Dog?) had used the stuff some years previously, and he said it was dirty stuff to use!  So powders DO vary.
            Now when Omnivore made his very telling comment, suggesting that instead of Bitching about the powder, you all should focus on ways to clean, oil, and otherwise care for the welfare of your guns, I slapped my knee, and said YES! So LOUDLY, I frightened my cats!
            Now when I go for a shooting session, I do not ever intend to reload any cylinders out there!   I DO have 16 of them, after all! I always take at least a dozen with me, and three extra one for the Girls to have inserted in them for the Drive Home!  After all, as the Scriptures tell us, "In the Midst of Life We are in Death." and as I have often remarked here in the past, I have great admiration for the Boy Scout Motto! "BE PREPARED!"  So in my case, the only thing that I SOMETIMES have to do a little cleanup & Lube job on, is the base pin!  I NEVER load my cylinders ON the gun.  My hand would not stand
the punishment of forcing .457 balls into the chambers with the loading lever on the gun. I'd need at the very least, a Catcher's Mitt to get it done, and anyway, it is far more comfortable for me to sit at the table, with however many cylinders I fired that afternoon, having boiled them all clean, (SURGICALLY CLEAN!!!) and having allowed them to air dry, so that every atom of moisture has evaporated from them!
            The fowling that Pyrodex P leaves in the wake of it's burning, is SOFT Fowling! so it has always been very much easier for me to brush a barrel clean, than the ardurous scrubbing I used to be faced with, when I cleaned that Thrice Accursed 1860 Army Monstrosity in Merrie England!!!  I can shoot all three of my Triplest out in the desert, and I NEVER have
to pass a brush down any of their barrels, because the fowling left behind by Pyrodex IS SOFT, and is wiped out by the passage of the next ball.  Cleaning my barrels is by far the easiest chore I have when I return home!  I remove the cylinder, then poise the revolver at an angle under the fawcett, and run hot water down the barrel. After a couple of seconds, the water comes out clean, and a cleaning rod with a jag and some old T-Shirt, restores a mirror like finish to the bores!  I suspect that some members are just repeating what they have read other members say about Pyrodex, and have not bothered to really try and experiment with it themselves!  Sort of, "Monkey read, then Monkey Write!"  I have been USING
Pyrodex P, for a great many years, and have NO COMPLAINTS WHATSOEVER!  I find it to be a very satisfactory propellant,
and have found it no more difficult to clean up, EXCEPT for Black Powder!  Which I have explained PAINSTAKINGLY, MANY TIMES, leaves behind it a fowling that is HARD!
            My barrels often come, "Squeaky Clean," with just hot water from the fawcett being poured down them! The patches often come out from the first pass, with no powder smudges on them at all. The only reason I use a Priming Charge of Holy Black at all, is that I have found in the past, that SOME GUNS, are inclined to give slight Hang-Fires when loaded with ONLY Pyrodex. Now some people are fortunate in having guns that never exhibit this trait.  However BOTH my old Eight Inch Remingtons DID Hang Fire from time to time, so I developed the system of putting ten grains of Holy Black at the bottom of each chamber!  Never had a Hang Fire Since!!!
            So I respectfully suggest, that instead of spouting forth like a flock of Polly Parrots about the Evils of Pyrodex, you learn to keep your revolvers spotlessly clean, and to lube them properly as well, and you will find that if you just use a pinch of Holy Black at the bottom of each chamber,(In case your revolver is one of those that will occasionally give inexplicable hang fires!) you will find that PyrodexP will give you performance very near to Swiss Powder, and you'll not have to ever bother about finding a store within reach of you that sells Holy Black, and having to spend a small fortune on Hazmat fees if you order from a supplier miles from your home! For a pound of Holy Black is 7,000 grains! and if you just use ten grans as a primer in each chamber, one pound will last you 700 shots!
            Pyrodex is reasonably priced, gives very good results if you do your part, is readily available in most locations, and at the present time is not unduly fettered with Government Red Tape!  Be thankful that this excellent product is readily available, and try and find the REAL reasons you are unhappy with it!  To once more quote the Scriptures, First cast the Mote from thine own eye!"
                                                                                     Johnnie Roper,Alias:Gunslnger9378!
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Omnivore on April 23, 2015, 01:03:29 PM
OK, that's one "vote" each for Graf and Sons, Pyro P, Goex 3F, and Elephant.  What do I do with that?  I planned on using one powder.  I already have the Pyro and the Goex.  Do I need to buy a pound each of Elephant and G & F too?  That'd be 400 shots total (100 each powder).  That's a bit more than I'd anticipated.

Which powder is most likely to cause Omnivore's demonstration to fail?

I can start with one powder, and if that gets through 100 shots, with the cylinder still turning reasonably well and the rifling still visible without wiping the bore, I suppose I could try another powder on another outing.  We can knock these dominoes down one at a time.  So where do I start?
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Mad Dog Stafford on April 23, 2015, 02:19:35 PM
I like T7 the best. Very easy to clean.
The worse is Pyro, really dirty.
Just my 2 cents.  ;)
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: ssb73q on April 23, 2015, 02:37:51 PM
Hi Johnnie, there's no mote in my eyes. See this thread from this post on, see

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=6410.msg143212#msg143212

Maybe even an old fart like you may learn something? I'm also an old fart, but not so old that I can't learn something new. I love you Johnnie, but IMO you are stuck in the mud.

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: ssb73q on April 23, 2015, 02:45:53 PM
Hi Omnivore, IMO any BP that is available to you would be a good place to start. I look forward to learning your results.

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: mike116 on April 23, 2015, 03:13:40 PM
I say  use the the Goex as a place to start.   You could end it there too if you feel so inclined.   Goex is the cheap and dirty stuff most of us will use if shooting Holy Black.   It's the most available and least expensive black powder I know of.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: G Dog on April 23, 2015, 04:01:02 PM
Speaking just for my area Mike116 is correct, Goex is the most readily available black but Pyro is the easiest to get around here.  I use Pyrodex P at a frequency of about ten to one to my use of black powder.  It is very available and black powder is much less so. 

I have had good results with Pyro P, much better than some here.  As has been noted ... lube is the key. I use a variation of Gatafeo No. 1 Lube over .454 balls and lithium grease on the arbor/pin.  The combination works very well.

Have gone sixty (maybe seventy) shots without a wipe down.  I will try to find out what is the maximum I can go without binding up. Never tried.

This is a really good topic and thread and I appreciate the contributions. I am following this with much interest.

Yea, Johnnie could be less reactionary and should show a little more patience and respect for people who's methods and gear differ from his own. 

Good thread, thanks guys.

Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Omnivore on April 23, 2015, 04:34:41 PM
OK, so here's the deal.  I've already done 100 shots with Pyro pellets, which is what Johnnies is using, though I didn't crush them - just seated them down with the bullet, as you'll see in my thread about compressed powder cartridges.  If the idea is that loose Pyro is dirtier than the pellets, I can certainly try that also, but I think I'll go ahead and try the regular Goex next.

Keep in mind that there are two requirements for my experiment to be successful.  The cylinder must be reasonably free to rotate AND the rifling must be readily visible.  I've been able to keep the cylinder running without attention, while the bore fouls up hard and destroys accuracy, so both criteria must be present or you're just making noise and smoke.

Also; I not only won't be wiping the cylinder pin; I won't even be pulling it, such as to swap cylinders.  I.e. NO attention given to it all.  Everything stays together and no lube is added beyond what's in the loads.

I repeat; I have already done the 100 shots with the Pyro pellets, and that worked well.  I commented at the time, IIRC, that I thought there would be no limit to the number of shots using that particular load, which, if you want it repeated here, was a Pyro pellet glued to the base of a Lee 200, the bullet then dipped in GF1 such that it was completely covered in a thick layer of lube, some of it in the grease grooves and a bunch more over the bullet.  That load also, I might add, has been the easiest to load on the gun in the field so far.  Really slick.  Its problems are that it sometimes comes apart in handling, it's not well suited to use in a cartridge belt box (at least not my box design), and it exhibits the occasional slight hangfire (no booster charge).  The pellets, as has been cited, are also more expensive.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: mike116 on April 23, 2015, 04:41:56 PM
Pyrodex is the most available substitute here too.   I don't anyone who uses it when something else is available.   
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: BartSr on April 23, 2015, 06:02:31 PM
I use 777-FFFg clean stuff.
I have been using Goex Clear Shot, not too bad, comes in a white metal can.
I have used Pyro but it is dirty and I have 4 bottles to use up.  (u^
Also have some Goex FFFg but it just sits.

Paul

Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Boondock on April 23, 2015, 06:42:14 PM
I don't have ready access to the Holy Black at the several LGS around me, so I have been shooting T7 FFFg, which is easily found at the local hardware store and elsewhere.  Fouling is indeed rather soft, and most rinses away with hot water, leaving the remainder of cleanup a cinch.  I do have a pound of Pyrodex P that I planned on taking with me for my next range trip, and am interested to see how it compares.  I figure I will shoot T7 in my 8" Pietta, and Pyrodex in the Sheriff, loading equally, and see which one gives up the ghost before fouling seizes the gun.  Accuracy won't be a primary focus of the experiment, as mine could use a great deal of improvement that only additional range time will provide.

Either way, Johnnie is indeed correct that if any of us want to keep our delicate hands clean, this is not the hobby to pursue.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: rodwha on April 23, 2015, 08:04:12 PM
"if you hate cleaning a gun THAT MUCH, why you all don't take up Needlepoint instead???"

Except no one was complaining about cleaning their gun(s). I enjoy cleaning my pistols. I don't mind the fouling I get from either Olde E or T7, but cannot stand the sticky fouling Pyrodex has left behind. And then the velocity that Pyrodex is dismal in comparison to either of the powders I use.

My father gave me two bottles of P and one bottle of RS with my Ruger. These were given to him, and he didn't care for them either. So I certainly have first hand experience with them and am not parroting anything.

The velocities shown with your loads were fairly good, but still about 100 fps slower than T7, Swiss, and Olde E. However they were better than loose Pyrodex.

Mr Beliveau got a velocity of 1062 fps with a .457" ball using just 33 grns of 3F T7:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_dwo2nThA

That's an additional 100 fps with 7 grns less powder.

The fouling left behind by Olde E is not hard when properly lubed, and as has been said it may have to do with the lube you did or did not use. I used the same lube when I used Pyrodex and didn't like what it left behind, but then it's likely it's not the same as your pellets, and that may be why you aren't complaining about the residue like everyone else.

As I showed Pyrodex pellets are not reasonably priced compared to the other powders. It's not even close, and to come up with the same number of shots as a can of loose powder you could have paid the HazMat and still had leftover $. This you cannot deny, and for someone who continually brings up the lack of funds you'd think you'd at least give it some consideration as it would do nothing but save you money that can be spent on caps or some such. But that's on you...
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: mike116 on April 23, 2015, 08:38:26 PM
rodwha is correct.  I don't see anyone here complaining.  Cleaning is just part of the deal.  I am interested in Omnivore's challenge purely for the information.   Most of the time I just want to shoot my revolvers,  as many times as I care to load them up.   If that means I can use any propellant I have and can continue uninterrupted, then I support anyone who is willing to do the research and provide the information.   I know I just want to shoot and enjoy it and I can only benefit from the results of Omnivore's testing no matter what the result.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: rodwha on April 24, 2015, 06:40:02 AM
The velocity I gave was for a 7.5" pistol which wouldn't be a fair comparison. The 5.5" model he used with the same load produced 1011 fps and 327 ft/lbs. I wonder what it would have shown with the same powder charge (40 grns)?
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: PaleHawkDown on April 24, 2015, 10:49:19 AM
One of our regulars makes home-brew powder out of stump remover. It's pretty nasty.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: jdurand on April 24, 2015, 10:54:04 AM
I must be doing something wrong, I can shoot a hundred rounds using Pyrodex without having to stop and clean the gun.  By the end of that the chambers are getting a bit dirty but nothing that would stop me from shooting another round.

What I found horrible was using cigarette paper wrapped powder.  After the first 6 shots I had to take the cylinder off and clean it, I had clogged nipples and paper remains in all the cylinders.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Kaeto on April 24, 2015, 10:57:16 AM
One of our regulars makes home-brew powder out of stump remover. It's pretty nasty.

Depending on the brand stump remover is pure saltpeter.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: G Dog on April 24, 2015, 12:56:08 PM
Jdurand, hi bud.  Hey, what kind of cig papers?  I’ve used some that were really nasty for leaving residue.  Midnight Special is the absolute worst.  I use American Spirit brand when I roll my own charges, made of flax.  They burn up and away pretty well.

I have had quite good performance and clean up luck with Pyrodex P.  Much better than some of the boys here have had.  Not married to it though.  I’d like to try all blacks and subs, it’s good fun to experiment  around and ya learn useful stuff too.  Swiss is really good, probably the best black I have gotten to use.  Lots of interesting powder out there. So much powder...so little time. I like powder.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: frontloader on April 24, 2015, 02:47:36 PM
One of our regulars makes home-brew powder out of stump remover. It's pretty nasty.
.............mine aint, with more energy than Goex....Spectracide stump remover. almost pure KNO3 , and a dust. whats not to like.,,,let me say. you might be rite. it is nasty
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: jdurand on April 24, 2015, 07:45:36 PM
It was some pack of papers from Hong Kong.  I don't read Chinese so couldn't tell you the brand.  As I don't smoke I didn't know there were significant differences between papers.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: rodwha on April 24, 2015, 08:54:03 PM
I've not had issues when using Pyrodex, but didn't like how the foulin was sticky. I've also seen how it is much more corossive than BP, though if you clean your gun soon enough this isn't an issue.

I've also used American Spirit papers and not had much paper left, but did notice very small leftovers in a few chambers. I eventually tried leaving them to see if they caused issues and after 3 cylinders they did not. I didn't try any more though.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Omnivore on April 27, 2015, 05:21:29 PM
The only time I had paper clog a nipple was when I was twisting the back end of the cartridge to close it.  Most of the time even that method worked OK.

Using the single layer, end cap method of construction as seen on capandball channel on Youtube. I've fired up to 100 rounds in one session with no trouble, though there was a fair amount of paper bits I noticed in the chambers during cleaning afterwards.  In other words; clogging is a total non-issue.  I no longer use cigarette paper either, but curling papers, or "end wraps" sometimes also known as "perm papers".  They're larger and so they can be cut to any size or shape for a 44 with plenty to spare, they're thin and reasonably strong too.  One layer thick at the back is never going to clog anything.  Ignore any little ethereal bits in the chambers and move on as if they weren't there.

Millions of paper cartridges were used in the 1860s and the War Department kept right on ordering them.  They were still being sold commercially up to the end of the nineteenth century.  If you use the right design and materials it's a pretty good and handy system, so if you're having problems, change your methods until you aren't.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Omnivore on April 30, 2015, 03:20:20 PM
I HOPE to get out sometime this weekend to fire off 100 shots using Goex 3F.  Being springtime and all, I have a lot of other things going on (garden and lawn, plus some repairs around the place and all) so we'll have to see how it goes.  I found out last night that I don't have 100 bullets (more like 50), so now I must either cast some more, or use a combination of round balls and bullets to add up to 100 shots.  I'm leaning toward more casting...
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Len on April 30, 2015, 03:49:52 PM
Dear Omnivore,
sometimes a man's got to make a choice as to whether he's going to mow the lawn or if he is going to do some serious BP shooting.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Fingers McGee on April 30, 2015, 08:54:16 PM
Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!

IMNSHO:

For BP subs, hands down, anything with the words Pyrodex on the label.

For real blackpowder, Elephant was dirtier, nastier, and smellier than any contemporary powder.

As far as cleanest BP goes, the old Lidu and Dragon powders were cleaner than current Swiss.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: G Dog on April 30, 2015, 09:16:45 PM
Fingers, are Lidu and Dragon still around?  I'm unfamiliar with them.  Cleaner burning than Swiss would be dang clean.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Omnivore on May 04, 2015, 11:23:28 PM
Oakey doakey then.  There was a very loose consensus that said Goex was the "dirtiest" of the currently available powders, and so I took that challenge.

I cast up around 200 bullets last week and rolled up 100 cartridges using 30 grains Goex 3F, a lube cookie of Gatofeo #1 about an eighth inch thick, and a Lee 200 grain bullet, rolled in perm paper and twisted over the bullet to hold it all together.

This evening I fired over 100 of those cartridges.  I took the photo of the muzzle, showing the "lube star", at around the fifty round count.  It looked about the same after 100 so I didn't take another photo.

I blew through the barrel and across the cylinder face after every six shots, but other than that I did nothing to clean or lube the gun.  What was in the loads and in my breath did all the maintenance.  The cylinder still turns freely, and I bet that  other than the obvious soot all over the gun and a little bit of sooty grease, I could convince you by the way the cylinder turns that it is a clean gun, after more than 100 shots without wiping or cleaning of any kind.

The last six rounds (shots number 97 thru 102) were fired on paper at 25 yards, standing, using the rail of my pickup bed as a rest.  The six shot group, measured using a dial caliper, comes to about 3.560", which is about as good as this revolver ever does.  I call it a 3.5" to 4" shooter.  It's a Pietta Remington NMA with the standard, long twist, 8" barrel and my adjustable trigger job, set just the way I like it.

Throughout the test I had exactly one cap jam (Johnnie) and zero misfires or hang fires.  I use Remington number ten caps on Treso nipples.

Understand that after several cylinders full, the cylinder DOES get harder to turn.  Blow the gun down though, as I say it, and the cylinder frees up like magic, in seconds.  Someone needs to tell the folks at Track of the Wolf about this, because they continue to give their caveat, on every BP revolver they list for sale, that you'll need to clean it after twelve or eighteen shots.  Pish posh, poppycock, and nonsense.  Balderdash too.

I maintain that a person could shoot from sunup to sundown, hundreds and hundreds of shots, and the gun wouldn't get significantly dirtier, less accurate or harder to operate than it was after the 100 shots.  I'll let someone else prove it though-- The 100 shots from a percussion gun on a nice evening is about enough for me.

So there you have it.  If Goex is dirty, it isn't nearly dirty enough that you can't shoot all day with it with no cleaning or even wiping the cylinder pin.

If it was a myth that Goex is "too dirty", that myth is hereby BUSTED!

NEXT!

What's it going to be?  I've already done this with Pyrodex pellets.  Do I need to do it with loose Pyrodex P, or has the point been made?  Done anyone believe there is a currently available powder too dirty to pass this test?

Now if you'll excuse me I have a gun to clean.

Oh by the way; the paper for the cartridge cases is untreated, i.e. no nitrating.  It's used as it comes out of the box.  Cost is a small fraction of a penny per round.  There is currently a very, very ugly accumulation of paper bits in the bottoms of all the chambers.  Ask me if I think it matters.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: SourMashII on May 04, 2015, 11:26:35 PM
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Content.aspx?PAGE=Black%20Powder

Schuetzen 3f,

I find it to be fairly fouling. But I'm kinda new at this.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Omnivore on May 05, 2015, 02:37:11 AM
The final part of the test is to show the bore.  In the first photo is the bore, completely untouched after 102 shots.  The rifling is mostly clear, with just a little carbon and grease, mixed together, from the last shot.  The accuracy test at the end showed the same thing, if you think about it, but here is the supporting evidence.

The second photo shows the bore after a single, DRY patch was pushed through, one direction, once.  The bore almost completely clean.

The third photo shows that first patch.  It's sooty, of course, and a little greasy from the lube, mostly all from the last shot, as any previous fouling is pushed out with each successive shot.

THAT is exactly how it's supposed to work.  I'm not saying my way is the only way (and it's not really my way anyway, but an amalgam of several other people's ways) but it is a way.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: rodwha on May 05, 2015, 06:35:17 AM
Nicely done!
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: ssb73q on May 05, 2015, 09:58:51 AM
Hi Omnivore, thank you for doing the test. I'm very impressed with your results, I would have never believed it could be done.

I'm delighted that you were able to share your testing results with us. I learned something new. Job well done!!  {?| {?| {?|

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: ssb73q on May 05, 2015, 10:03:48 AM
Hi moderators, I suggest that this thread be made a sticky.

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Mad Dog Stafford on May 05, 2015, 01:59:56 PM
Richard, your wish will come true!  ;)
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: G Dog on May 05, 2015, 02:01:48 PM
I agree with ssb's suggestion regarding 'sticky status'  for Omnivore's great ongoing testing and it's results.

Great work Omnivore!  Thanks for putting in the time and effort. It is appreciated. 
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Omnivore on May 05, 2015, 03:43:37 PM
Thank YOU.  I appreciate Y'all's kind words, but since I did it for fun, no thanks are necessary.  I would like to see the word spread though, whenever someone says they're having fouling problems or that this or that powder is "too dirty".  The whole thread could be distilled to the following;

If fouling accumulates in your gun, you can change your loading and gun handling practices to prevent it.  Using enough (and the right kind) of lube UNDER the ball or bullet, and blowing breath over and through the gun after every cylinder full, are two ways (combined) to accomplish that.  I would add that using ONLY little bit of lube under the bullet (as one time I did this with a very thin GF1 lube cookie - that was with Old Eynsfor powder, though I don't believe it would have mattered) can result in horrible fouling and bore restriction to the point of extruding the bullet, destroying accuracy, packing lead in with the fouling in the bore, and very difficult cleaning afterward.  If that happens, use more lube and all will be well.  For every powder and loading, there is the right amount and kind of lube.  Gatofeo #1 is pretty good lube, and unless it melts, it won’t contaminate the powder over time.

That’s about it.  That’s one small paragraph, so a person need not read the whole thread unless there’s the desire to spend some time reading.

Some have been reporting using no lube or wads at all, "shooting dry" so to speak, blowing through the gun as I've described after every six, and having decent results.  That is not something I have tried.  However, I've yet to see a report of getting off 100 shots (dry, no wad) with an accuracy test and bore inspection at the end, so for now I'll assume that the jury is still out on that one.  Maybe someone can confirm or deny here, based on their experiences.

I should add that, after that last shooting session yesterday evening, after the gun sat for several hours in the holster inside the house, the cylinder DID become pretty stiff.  Not too stiff to function, but stiff, and the cylinder pin was difficult to pull.  Not so difficult that I needed a tool or some special technique, but difficult.

The point being; there's a time window there.  So my assertion that you could shoot all day, from, sunup to sundown, hundreds of shots, is amended with the following caveat-- If you take a very long break, your gun may be pretty stiff afterwards.  So you may need to wipe the cylinder pin, not based on round count, but on time since your last shot.  In my test run I never stopped for more than a few minutes.  Temperature and humidity more than likely play a major role in this also.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Omnivore on May 05, 2015, 05:11:16 PM
Another point that should be made here is that, although I used paper cartridges in this test, you can of course get the much same results loading with loose powder;
Powder, lube cookie, bullet
You won't end up with the bits of paper in the chambers either, though as I pointed out there doesn't seem to be a downside to that so far.

A variation would be;
Powder, thin card, lube cookie, bullet (keeps lube from contacting powder)

Or, because the lube sort of sticks to the base of the bullet and is carried along, sometimes with fizzling granules of powder, another load would be;
Powder, cookie, card, bullet.

And if you want to be really OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) about it;
Powder, card, cookie, card, bullet (the “Oreo cookie”, with “cream filling”)

These are variations of loads I've seen mentioned with regard to using black powder in metal cartridges.

A very generous lube groove might accomplish much the same results, without the cookie.  This is alluded to in the description of the commercially offered "Big Lube" bullets.

My inspiration for this goes back several years, to John Fuhring's articles on "Clean Loading" and on "Managing black powder fouling by proper loading technique";
http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps3.html
To give credit where credit is due then, I believe Fuhring would deserve the thanks.

You will note that much of what I said here is variation and reiteration of what Fuhring said years ago.  Though he was not apparently aware of GF1 (Gatofeo #1 lube) at the time, he did come up with some similar concoctions.  You'll also note that he discounts the lube groove idea for the most part, preferring under-the-bullet lube for what he termed "fouling mitigation" (a term I've used here more than once before).

This thread also goes hand in hand with my thread "Cartridge Box (speaking of field carry)" in the Accoutrements section, as it is part of being able to carry a relatively large number of pre-made cartridges on the person, with nothing but a cartridge belt box, the pistol and a capper, and successfully fire all rounds without hassle or encumbrances;
 http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=8337.0
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Mad Dog Stafford on May 29, 2015, 10:26:08 AM
BTT
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Fingers McGee on May 29, 2015, 11:23:41 AM
Fingers, are Lidu and Dragon still around?  I'm unfamiliar with them.  Cleaner burning than Swiss would be dang clean.

Unfortunately, they have not been available as sporting powder for a number of years.  I believe Lidu is still used in the fire works industry.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: snake-eyes on December 13, 2015, 04:23:35 PM
Old post I know.....Hard for me to answer the initial question because with very few
exceptions I have never used anything but 3fff Goex. To me....it is what it is and I will
live with it. :9)
snake-eyes  )&&
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Tom-ADC on December 13, 2015, 04:51:19 PM
I used Goex for everything up until a couple of years ago when I started using Swiss in my BP 45-70 loads I really like it much cleaner than the Goex I was using in them.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: snake-eyes on December 13, 2015, 05:09:42 PM
Tom,
      Actually the reason I stay with Goex is because it is readily available thru my
gun club at a reasonable price.To switch to anything other would require,at least for
me,mail order and I am not willing to pay the Haz-Mat fees. I guess I am just  :9) poor
and cheap. :'(
snake-eyes  )&&
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Tom-ADC on December 13, 2015, 06:49:50 PM
I have no choice if I want real BP then mail order is the only way, I use Powder Inc and sure a order with a couple of friends.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Gunslinger9378 on December 14, 2015, 06:34:54 PM
Dear Friends,
            I have fired 13 cylinders, in one afternoon, with my So called Duplex load. (Ten grains Holy Black Goex,NO WAD! Over the ball lube of half & Half Beeswax & Olive Oil.) My barrels at the end of the afternoon looked almost exactly like the very interesting pictures taken by Omnivore.  Lands and grooves clearly visible, but instead of putting a patch down the barrels, I poured water from the hot faucett down the barrels from the forcing cone end.  This made the barells look clean, but of course there were droplets of water visible in the barrels. One dry patch restored a , "Never been fired," appearance to the barrels.
            As all of you know I boil my cylinders, with the nipples upward in the saucepan, so the the water boils upard through the capacious chambers, is then rstricted by the much smaller hole in the nipple, so the nipples are,"Force steam Cleaned," by this process!  I load OFF THE GUN! I place the cylinders  nipples down in my loading device, and first put ten grainsof Goex in the bottom of each chamber. I then check to be sure that each chamber DOES have ten grains, and not one with 20 grains, and one with none! (Ten grains is not easy to see at the very bottom od a .44 chamber. So I use a flashlite to check this.) I then put in each chamber a 30 grain,(It sez 'ere!) Pyrodex Pistol Pellet!  This pellet is much more powerful than 30 grains of loose Pyrodex. Then I place a .457 ball on the mouth of the chambers, and using a .50 cal Ball Starter, I drive the balls down HARD, onto the pellet load.  I KNOW that this crushes the pellet, but By Golley, it works just fine! (An average of 945 fps from a 5.5" barrel!!!) It maybe more, but the Chicken Hearted guy who did the Chrongraph tests, was scared to ignore Hgden's
Dire warnings! ( I might add that I have fired some hundreds of this load through all three of my Sheriff's Models, with no harm whatsoever!) I then place a generous quantity of my Olive Oil and Beeswax lube, OVER THE BALLS!
            MY BARREL'S LOOK JUST LIKE OMIVORE'S FIRST PICTURE AFTER EACH CYLINDER HAS BEEN FIRED!  As he so wisely states, each ball wipes out the fouling left by the previous shot, just leaving it's own fowling in the barrel. Also since I have been at great pains to point out, the fowling left behind by my chosen propellant, PYRODEX, is SOFT!  So there is no hard substances left in the barrel to collect lead from the balls, and cause build-up of fowling in the barrel. SO, after a prolonged session such as Omnivore described, cleanup is relatively easy, and doesn't take a long time either! In fact, cleanup with Pyrodex is really easy!  The barrels come clean with just tap water run through the barrels, and often just ONE dry patch will leave them looking like new!  My little saucepan will get all the crud out of the chambers, so once they've boiled for a spell, they are Squeaky clean, and air dry long before they are cool enough to touch!  I try and use the KISS method!(Keep It Simple, Stupid!)  I come home a bit dirty, but once the cylinders are onto boil, and I have run hot tap water through the barrels, it all over bar the reloading!
            I hear you guys talking about removing nipples! and I laugh.  I shot Betsy & Clementine for FOURTEN YEARS. I never
once removed a nipple, and never, ever had ANY TROUBLE that could be Nipple related!  When I go shooting, ALL my rounds go off with loud booms, I don't have any Misfires or Hangfires!  No matter how long the cylinders have been loaded!  In Short, I seem to be remarkably short of problems!  I wonder WHY!
                                                                                                      Johnnie Ropper;Alias:Gunslinger9378.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Hawg on December 14, 2015, 09:46:28 PM
The dirtiest, nastiest? Unique hands down. I tossed the first and only pound of that stuff I ever bought after loading 50 rounds out of it.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Classanr on December 15, 2015, 09:48:59 AM
...I blew through the barrel and across the cylinder face after every six shots...and [lube plus] my breath did all the maintenance... Blow the gun ... and the cylinder frees up like magic, in seconds... need to clean it after twelve or eighteen shots?  Pish posh, poppycock, and nonsense.  Balderdash too....

I believe the exhaled CO2 is the secret ingredient, that a shot from a CO2 cylinder would do the trick as well; but with all due respect, and to give the readers a meme to help reinforce Omnivore's lesson, it is well-accepted that most relationships do much better with frequent oral activity of the non-speaking type.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: snake-eyes on December 15, 2015, 11:46:50 AM
it is well-accepted that most relationships do much better with frequent oral activity of the non-speaking type.
Classanr,
              {:(    (T^   :-[   )L$
snake-eyes  )&&
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: old fogey on April 14, 2016, 10:02:36 PM
Thanks Omnivore, appreciate the trouble you go through to help out all the miscreants on this forum! Snake-eyes, that is exactly why I'm thinking of making my own powder when I finally run through the four 1/2 lb.s I have now (do like Scheutzen, though)!
                                                                       Like the diy canned bacon tip at Backwoods Home too, DD4, thanks!
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: old fogey on November 30, 2016, 07:52:01 PM
neccessary evil, think (if I recall discussions on this forum about it -) that Triple Se7en is simply bp without the sulfur component (ie., 75 % charcoal and 25 % potassium nitrate, rather than the normal bp mixture of 75 % charcoal, 15 % potassium nitrate and 10% sulfur) as shown at this (http://explosives.wonderhowto.com/how-to/make-homemade-black-powder-without-sulfur-234786/) website.
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: jdurand on November 30, 2016, 08:17:41 PM
If you take the sulfur out of BP, you lose power.  777 is quite a bit different from BP, see ingredients here

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS%20Files/Muzzleloading/Triple%20Seven%20SDS%20Sheet-2013.pdf
Title: Re: Tell me; what is the dirtiest, nastiest, foulingest powder?!
Post by: Classanr on December 03, 2016, 03:06:26 PM
If you read the Data Safety Sheets of all the BP substitutes, you will discover they all depend on artificial sweeteners and/or preservatives to make up for the lack of sulfur.  Now you know why your mind explodes when you drink too many diet sodas.   (?^