The 1858 Remington Forum

General Black Powder Discussions => Remington Gunleather and Rigs => Topic started by: Omnivore on May 03, 2017, 09:15:17 AM

Title: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Omnivore on May 03, 2017, 09:15:17 AM
Just a quick teaser.  Leathersmith Mike (Mike116) did the leather work.  The internal core, with individual cavities for the cartridges, is 3D printed in wood fiber filled PLA plastic.  This model holds the fifty rounds in the same space that my wooden-cored original held forty rounds.  Designed for the 30 grain, 44 Army paper cartridges, it's a major component to the "Field Carry" system.

No more flasks, measures, bags of wads, bags of balls or tubs of grease, et al, in the field-- All that stuff is pre-configured and neatly packaged inside the cartridge.  The box filled with fifty rounds weighs about two pounds.
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Classanr on May 03, 2017, 09:47:09 AM
Sign me up for one  {?|
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Omnivore on May 03, 2017, 12:17:27 PM
Correction; It's a shade over 2.5 pounds full, depending largely on the bullet weight of course.  I have both 200s and 225s in it now.
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Classanr on May 03, 2017, 01:50:04 PM
Oh, well in that case, forget it  M__
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Omnivore on May 03, 2017, 02:08:37 PM
If you use round ball you're knocking off a half pound of lead compared to my combo pack of 200s and 225s.   :P

50 bullets of 225 gr comes to 1.6 pounds.
50 bullets of 200 grains  is 1.4 pounds
50 RB at 140 gr comes to 1 pound ("Calibre; fifty balls to the pound")

Just wanna get the numbers right, 'cause what good are numbers when they ain't right?  ;D
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Classanr on May 03, 2017, 02:42:56 PM
Oh good, now I'm back in.  {?|
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Mad Dog Stafford on May 04, 2017, 09:39:15 AM
What's the inside look like?
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Len on May 04, 2017, 09:50:27 AM
What's the inside look like?

It s kind of blackpowderish
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Omnivore on May 04, 2017, 10:13:19 AM
Pretty much like this;
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Classanr on May 04, 2017, 12:59:16 PM
Can you make it curve at the hip sorta like a claymore mine?
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Len on May 04, 2017, 01:23:33 PM
Can you make it curve at the hip sorta like a claymore mine?
What kind of radius for the belly is needed?
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: prof marvel on May 04, 2017, 01:35:19 PM
Oh My Good Omnivore The Entrepreneur -

That is amazing and desirable!
can you possibly come up with a price guestimate?

yhs
prf mvl
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Classanr on May 04, 2017, 03:39:29 PM
Can you make it curve at the hip sorta like a claymore mine?
What kind of radius for the belly is needed?

Yeah, Omnivore, can you make that curve Lensized?

And will this thing work for 45acp so I don't have to carry around a rattly box of 50?  Right now I use 10 each 8mm 5-rnd stripper clips to keep 50 loose rounds from rattling.  Works for the noise-reduction purpose, but takes two hands to grab a round for reload.
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Hewy on May 04, 2017, 04:58:16 PM
Oh My Good Omnivore The Entrepreneur -

That is amazing and desirable!
can you possibly come up with a price guestimate?

yhs
prf mvl

He won"t guess, it will be exact.
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Omnivore on May 04, 2017, 05:22:55 PM
Quote
Can you make it curve at the hip sorta like a claymore mine?

Thought about it.  First, it's not as wide as you might think.  I've had the original for two years or so, I've used it many times, winter summer spring and fall, and it just wasn't an issue at all.  As soon as I got this one back from Mike116 I wore it around the property quite a bit - no difference - if anything it's better in that regard because the belt loops are better.  Second, a compound curve would make the leatherwork more difficult (but maybe Mike would have more to say on that).  I really don't see it as an issue as it is, and so I'd put that into the category of "a solution to a problem that doesn't exist".

For carrying extra ACP rounds; get more magazines.  They make belt pouches for those.  If you're using a revolver for any auto pistol round, then it should be set up to use moon clips or half-moon clips.  Get more clips.  For rimmed revolver cartridges, use speed loaders, which come in several configurations.  Given the currently available options I don't see any reason to carry loose rounds any way you look at it, is the point.  For a lever, single shot or bolt gun, they already make cartridge belts and bandoliers, and some ammo makers even sell their 20 round boxes with two plastic belt-looped containers holding ten rounds each.  There are several existing options there.

That being said; there may be some better way still, as there usually is. 

What the world did not have to offer until now is a good and handy way to carry revolver paper cartridges in a dispenser.  Not that I could find, and I looked, so then I had to make one.  THIS is a dispenser as well as a carrying case.  The old style six packs were handy carriers, but try reloading from one, using the original, tab-less cartridges, without any place to set anything down.  It can be done (I've tried it) but it is something of a stunt.  That, and packing fifty rounds in six packs means you're packing eight or nine little six packs in your pockets.  That's a lot of extra handling and fiddling compared to opening your belt box and plucking out cartridges.

As far as I'm concerned, this is "The Way" to carry and operate a percussion revolver.  Johnnie would beg to differ, preferring a passel of spare cylinders.  That's fine until you're talking about carrying all of that extra weight and bulk on your person in a mobile situation.  If you're shooing from a fixed position with tables and chairs, then by all means set up and lay out all your shooting accessories, but this is "Field Carry" we're talking.

OK I'll stop evangelizing.

Quote
That is amazing and desirable!
can you possibly come up with a price guestimate?


A poignant response, Professor!
It's too early to work out at the moment.  Not enough information.  We still have to finalize the leatherwork design, and then Mike has to tell me what he needs.  Suffice it to say that you should save up for a while, maybe take out a mortgage one of your various real estate holdings, or sell one of your race horses or classic sports cars, maybe put off that divorce and the trip to The Bahamas with your new wife for a while...  (OK, just kidding - probably not that much).
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: blackpowderben on May 04, 2017, 05:39:32 PM
That is awesome!
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: G Dog on May 04, 2017, 06:39:28 PM
Yeah, awesome.  The very word.  You two guys done good.


The Professor seems well pleased with his current spousal-unit.  I imagine he'll save money in other ways than putting off a trip to the Bahamas with his girlfriends.  I mean ... you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: prof marvel on May 04, 2017, 08:55:52 PM
Yeah, awesome.  The very word.  You two guys done good.


The Professor seems well pleased with his current spousal-unit.  I imagine he'll save money in other ways than putting off a trip to the Bahamas with his girlfriends.  I mean ... you know what I mean.

Oh Yes.
We Know.

I'll probably have to sell of one of the Rememberants, or that original Clot Waker, or some such...

yhs
prf mumbles.
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Gunslinger9378 on May 04, 2017, 10:08:43 PM
Dear Friends,
            I have to admit that the idea is a good one, for those shooters who carry fragile Paper Cartridges in the Field! However I have already invested in well over a dozen Cylinders, and with these there is no fiddling about with fragile Paper Cartridges, which in the excitement of seeing an elligable Buck, might be a little too fragile for fumbling fingers.  Especially EXCITED Fumbling Fingers!!!
            In Australia when we used to go out  t night and Spotlight Kangaroo's, I would sometimes take a box of fifty rounds with me, but NEVER used that many!  Even on a busy evening, when weather conditions were idea, it was rare to have more that 25 cases to reload!  15 would be more of an average!
            About the only animal that a shooter in this Lower 48 would be likely to encounter,  and that may need a follow-up shot(s) to settle the encounter, would be our Old Friends, the Feral Hog! I have been told that these Critturs can be downright Testy, and if they decide that you are uwelcome in their territory, can cause a human much woe & Trepidition! (To say nothing of copious Blood Loss!)
            Those intrepid Westerners who ventureed forth across this nation in the latter half of the 19th Century, were braver than they knew!!! Oh, they had read the letters that neighbors had received from others in their families who had gone the last season, but there is no second guessing nature, and the weather that the previous seasons travellers had experienced, could be very different indeed from the that conditions YOUR PARTY may encounter!  About the ONLY knowledgeale People they might encounter, were some of the Mountain Men, who would sometimes take great delight in frihtening the Living Daylighs out of the Greenies, with tales of fifteen foot Grizzly Bears, and Pack of Wolves. (Which in fact were very little danger to Humans!)
            One of the Outdoor Life Magazines put up the Princely Sum of $10,000.oo for anyone who could give them a VERIFIABLY Tale where wolves had ever attacked an able-Bodied Hunter of Traveller.  This was back in the 1920's I believe.  The Money is still up for grabs.  Wolves will hang around your camp. and will accept scraps, but will not attack an able bodied Human.  There have been one or two exceptions, but in every case of this type, an examination of the animal that did attack a human, proved it to be rabid!
            My Penultimate wife had a Coffee Table book that had a scad of pictures taken by the Author, of a Wolf Pack he had lived with up in Northern Canada for about four or five months.  He was often left behind when the pack found a Caribou Herd and raced off after it, but he just followed their tracks, and camped near them all when he caught up with them.  They soon realized he meant them no harm, and even when the Boss Bitch had a litter of Wolf-Cubs, she did not become the least bit alarmed when the Cubs investigated this strange Bi-Ped that was following them all the time.  One VERY Charming picture he took, was a two or three of the cubs untying his boot laces.   You could plainly see that that they had been wrestling with one another over his feet, and the picture he had taken with the camera pointing vertically downwards as the cubs pulled at his bootlaces until they got them undone!  Mom & Dad just looked on at the cubs antics, with what seemed to the young man, to be parental Pride!
            The young man was very sad to say goodbye to his four-footed friends.  The book belonged to the wife, so I never saw it again after we split up. The book was quite large,  about 18" square, and it had about 180 pages.  The young man had obviously
 "done His Homework" and just took with him a supp;y of what I can only imagine were some kind of emergency Rations for himself.  He had also plainly learned a lot about wolves, for he did not take a weapon of any kind with him.  He eventually became very fond of the Pack, and it was obviously quite painful for him to have to,"Say Good-Bye," to them all, when his time was up, and he had to head back to Civilization once more.  For several weeks he as all alone with just the Wolf-Pack for company, and he never ONCE felt the least bit threatened by any of them.  The photographs he took of the pack were very beautiful. They were all in prime Winter Fur, and looked for all the world like they were his pack of Pets, as they lay all around his tent in the snow, and watched his antics!
                                                                                                        Gunslinger9378.
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Omnivore on May 04, 2017, 10:34:03 PM
Quote
I have already invested in well over a dozen Cylinders, and with these there is no fiddling about with fragile Paper Cartridges, which in the excitement of seeing an elligable Buck, might be a little too fragile for fumbling fingers.

OK, they're not really all that fragile (I've dropped them on hard ground with little or no damage) and you don't wait to load your gun.  You have it loaded before you see said eligible buck, and then you only have to cock the hammer.  You wouldn't go out hunting without a cylinder in the gun either, I reckon.

For that matter, I wouldn't take the fifty round box out hunting either.  Not unless it was to slaughter as many pigs as possible, or some such.  For my deer hunt last fall I took two loaded chambers in a six-shooter, one capped and one not capped.  I figured I'd never need it, but I also took a six pack of cartridges in my pocket.  That's nearly four time the ammo I've ever needed on a deer hunt.  At the end I only fired one shot, and Mr Buck was headed for the freezer, and we're still eating him.

The most shots I've ever fired on a deer hunt was two.  The most reloads I've ever performed on a hut is two, and that's if you count the one dry ball I did on the muzzleloading rifle.

No, Sir; I don't see this so much as part of a hunting rig as it is part of a fun day of plinking and target shooting, or part of a camping, hiking and shooting trip, etc.  Even a trip to a formal range to shoot at static targets would be greatly facilitated by not having to bring anything but the gun belt and a capper.  The idea is you get in more shooting, come shooting day, because you've assembled all your loads beforehand, and you're not transporting loose components.

Now for hunting, I am thinking of a six pack belt box.  A little bitty thing, similar to this one but in a leather belt box;
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=10934.msg188409#msg188409

Two rounds in the cylinder, plus six extra cartridges, is a lot of fire power for a one day, one tag deer hunt.  If you need more than one or two rounds you probably messed up at some stage.
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Omnivore on May 04, 2017, 11:24:07 PM
I should also credit Roman Pacheco of Idaho for the computer aided drafting work and 3D printing of the six packs and the fifty round belt box core.  He went through several rolls of polymer filament, and many hours of work, for this project.
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: vhram on May 06, 2017, 09:41:45 AM
That looks awesome !
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Len on May 06, 2017, 10:25:31 AM
Quote
Can you make it curve at the hip sorta like a claymore mine?

......... Second, a compound curve would make the leatherwork more difficult (but maybe Mike would have more to say on that). ...........

Mike116 already made a curved pouch leather lining. Somewhere in the treasure vaults of the Forum, there is a photograph or two. Classanr might know.
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Omnivore on May 06, 2017, 07:03:01 PM
Hello Len,

That would require a substantial redesign.  Currently the lid hinges along the straight back, all the way across, and this provides continuity of the leather all the way over the top, to the back; good protection against wet weather.  If the back were curved, the hinge action (bending, really) would be compromised.  Also the core would be more expensive to make.

If you were to try this design, just as it is now, you'd soon forget about having a curved one.

Anyway; what are we really discussing there, summersaults and rolls while wearing your gun belt?  If you were doing regular summersaults and rolls while wearing this system, the gun would become the focus of your attention (and pain) rather than the cartridge box.
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Hewy on May 07, 2017, 08:46:25 AM
A while back, you Omni, got me interested in rolling paper cartridges, I tried cig paper
then seatled on hair curling papers.
Then you introduced a wood insert container holding  6 rounds housed in a leather pouch,
now this. With the help of Mike the leather guy seems to me you have arrived.
Nice work ! (T^
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: mike116 on May 07, 2017, 10:40:52 AM
Quote
Can you make it curve at the hip sorta like a claymore mine?

......... Second, a compound curve would make the leatherwork more difficult (but maybe Mike would have more to say on that). ...........

Mike116 already made a curved pouch leather lining. Somewhere in the treasure vaults of the Forum, there is a photograph or two. Classanr might know.

Curving the back of the 50 round cartridge box could be done but it's not necessary.   The box is only 6 inches wide.   It rides comfortably on a belt as is.   It's also more difficult to make a box with only one side curved than a box that has both the front and back curved.  In addition the lid is completely separate from the body of the box which makes it easier to execute.
Here's the curved box I made that belongs to Classanr
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab126/mike-116/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-06-17%2017.33.29_zpsnluuqngc.jpg)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab126/mike-116/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-06-17%2017.38.08_zpslw8tgzak.jpg)
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Len on May 07, 2017, 12:34:02 PM
Hello Len,

That would require a substantial redesign.  Currently the lid hinges along the straight back, all the way across, and this provides continuity of the leather all the way over the top, to the back; good protection against wet weather.  If the back were curved, the hinge action (bending, really) would be compromised.  Also the core would be more expensive to make.

If you were to try this design, just as it is now, you'd soon forget about having a curved one.

Anyway; what are we really discussing there, summersaults and rolls while wearing your gun belt?  If you were doing regular summersaults and rolls while wearing this system, the gun would become the focus of your attention (and pain) rather than the cartridge box.

Hello Omni,
I buy all of your practical opinions. I just propagated for a more extravagant style. As the bloody Germans say: "Warum es einfach machen, wenn man es so wunderschön kompliziert machen könnte" (or something in that direction).
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Classanr on May 07, 2017, 07:12:23 PM
Easy for you to say.
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Classanr on May 07, 2017, 07:14:12 PM

Here's the curved box I made that belongs to Classanr


And a wonderful work of art it is!
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Omnivore on May 07, 2017, 08:20:36 PM
"Warum es einfach machen, wenn man es so wunderschön kompliziert machen könnte"

"Why make it easy if you could make it so wonderfully complicated?"  Something like that.

Yeah, well, Len; that's not peculiar to the bloody Germans, I can assure you.  Just look at any new automobile for an examples of that, no matter where they're made.  Look at any computer operating system-- They just keep getting bigger, more complicated, more resource hungry, and more fraught with pitfalls and problems.  Give me something like Windows '94, but stable.  It'll do everything you want done, but with a thousandth of the code and a thousandth of the resources..  Even that was too much of a giant, lumbering pig for them to keep it running right.

I think we do that to everything in our lives, then we wonder why life can't be simple.

Some time, far in the future, some enterprising kid is going to discover a brand new concept called a "carburetor" and he'll hook it up to an internal combustion engine, along with a high voltage coil and a set of contact points.  He'll then build it all into a basic chassis with only basic functions (very few of them electric, much less computerized) and it'll be so cheap and reliable that he'll become a trillionaire selling them.  Hundreds of millions of people who couldn't afford such a luxury as a personal motor vehicle, much less care for one, will suddenly be driving them (or flying them) all over the place.

This, as usual when the "common people" find a new level of freedom, will piss off a lot of people who view themselves as "authorities" or "central planners".  They will panic, and try to put a stop to it before too many people realize that their "authority" is just a hoax.
Title: Re: Fifty round belt box for paper cartridges
Post by: Hewy on May 14, 2017, 08:30:21 PM
Some time, far in the future, some enterprising kid is going to discover a brand new concept called a "carburetor" and he'll hook it up to an internal combustion engine, along with a high voltage coil and a set of contact points.  He'll then build it all into a basic chassis with only basic functions (very few of them electric, much less computerized) and it'll be so cheap and reliable that he'll become a trillionaire selling them.  Hundreds of millions of people who couldn't afford such a luxury as a personal motor vehicle, much less care for one, will suddenly be driving them (or flying them) all over the place.

This is why I drive a 1968 Chevy V8 pick up and a 1966 VW Beetle.
Simple, reliable inexpensive to own and operate. (T^