The 1858 Remington Forum

General Black Powder Discussions => Projectiles => Topic started by: BOOMSTICK BRUCE on April 11, 2017, 08:39:35 AM

Title: .38 wildcat?
Post by: BOOMSTICK BRUCE on April 11, 2017, 08:39:35 AM
i was just getting dressed and getting ready to run to the post office when i saw a .380 bullet i pulled sitting next to a .45colt case and thought to myself, "self, what about necking down a .45 case to accept a 38 bullet, you could bore out a .38 conversion cylinder for a .36 remington to accept the round, there is enough metal in the cylinder for it to work"

what's y'alls thoughts?
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: ssb73q on April 11, 2017, 09:07:36 AM
i was just getting dressed and getting ready to run to the post office when i saw a .380 bullet i pulled sitting next to a .45colt case and thought to myself, "self, what about necking down a .45 case to accept a 38 bullet, you could bore out a .38 conversion cylinder for a .36 remington to accept the round, there is enough metal in the cylinder for it to work"

what's y'alls thoughts?

Hi Bruce, the problem is that .36 caliber BP revolver bores are larger than 0.357", ~0.385". To use correct sized bullets you need to use heel based bullets or hollow based 0.357" bullets to engage the rifling. Using hollow based bullets requires a light loading charge so as to not blow out the bullet base on exiting the muzzle. I use hollow based bullets in my 38 Colt/38 Special conversion cylinders with light loadings. Also, I don't think there is enough chamber metal to bore out a 38 Colt/38 Special to take a .45 Colt diameter case.

You may be able to shoot 0.357" bullets from a .45 Colt conversion cylinder in a .44 caliber revolver using sabots?

Regards,
Richard

Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: DD4lifeusmc on April 11, 2017, 09:19:05 AM
UHHHH   wouldn't you have to bore the  the conversion cylinder out to fit the .45  case first?
So to me the question would be if there is enough metal in the 38 cylinder to bore out to .45

now if you used a .45 cylinder to start with, then the bullet would be like a bowling ball in the gutter as it
was leaving  the cylinder,

bullet dia   .45 lc   lead  .454   jacketted  .452

.38 bullet dia  .357       
so if using 44 pistol  nope
If using a .36  cal pistol   balls are typically   .375 /  .380   so the barrel would be a bit oversized

So I would still say nope.  dimensions are too far off.

And that was already done back in 1963 ( necking 45 to 38)  with the .38 / .45 clerk
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: mike116 on April 11, 2017, 09:45:53 AM
Hoofhearted (Gary Barnes)   http://www.cartridgeconversion.com/SERVICES.php   will reline your '51 Navy barrel with a .357 sleeve so you can use .38 special cartridges in your conversion cylinder.   He also has .41 colt reloading tools and cylinders that can be made to work with .36 cal Italian revolvers.
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Gunslinger9378 on April 11, 2017, 11:12:58 AM
Dear Friends,
            This would seem to be a purely Interlectual Exercise!  To Quote the Good Book,"What would it profit a man.........."  Also, since from recent postings by Suzuki Bruce, he has become quite infatuated with Cas, and SASS in Particular, if you are ever going to come near the Top Ten in a SASS Competition, then you will have to traIn yourself to use ONLY MOUSE-PHART LOADS! As was so beautifully put by Hawg in a recent posting!
            When SASS first started, I thought it was a wonderful idea.  The idea that an organisation was starting, that would cause Clothing Manufacturers to start making clothing that was "Correct,"(??) for the period 1850 to 1890, filled my heart with joy! Then just as had happened with I.P.S.C. "The Gamesmen" took over the idea!  I gave up on I.P.S.C., when shooters began appearing on the Firing Line wearing holsters that looked as it they had come off the Flight Deck of the USS Starship, "Enterprise," Commanded by Captain Kirk! (The Television Capt. Kirk!!!)
            Nowadays, one has only to view certain Videos of, "Cowboys(?)" Decked out like Spangled Jays, performing with a variety of reproductions of Firearms, that were popular in the days of The Wild West, at unheard of speeds, because they only use enough propellent to get the slug to trickle out of the muzzles of their guns, fast enough to give an audible "CLANG!" when
 a Target  is struck by one of their meandering slugs!I So I said to myself: "Self, Call me when it's Over!"
            I would make it my business to attend one day per event, at the SASS Winter Range, that used to be held, (And may still be held???????) at Ben Avery Range just north of Phoenix.  One Self-Opinionated little twit, came up to me and asked me where my badge was,  It turned out he was referring to a Badge issued by SASS to their members, with the "Handle," (I Think?) & their
Membership Number.  I told him truthfully that I was not a member of SASS, but was attending to watch, and have a good laugh!  He at once told me that I was not permitted to wear loaded Guns, at a SASS Sponsored event, if I as not a member.  The Kid had sharp eyes, he had seen thet the chambers of my twin eight inch Remingtons were capped!   This got right up my Nose!
            I told him in no uncertain terms, that I was a Citizen of the United States of America, and a lawfull and legal resident of the State of ARIZONA, AND I WAS ENTITLED TO WEAR A LOADED GUN ANYWHERE I PLEASED, UNLESS IT WAS A PLACE SUCH AS A SCHOOL, WHERE THE CARRYING OF FIREARMS WAS SPECIFICALLY FORBIDDEN!!!  I THEN GAVE HIM WHAT I HOPED WAS A WITHERING LOOK, and stalked off as well as a pair of very high heeled boots would permit!
            If enough of them remained in Circulation, I would wear a pair of Genuine Remington Revolvers.  However, Originals are becoming as scarce as Hen's teeth, and have I feel, "Earned their retirement!"  Since excellent reproductions of these admirable weapons are available at a reasonable price, I carry the replicas!  I also load them to what I feel would have been carried by a Cowboy who was one of those that worked for,"Fighting Wagws!" 
            To me, to use these "Mouse Phart Loads," is a form of cheating!  I.P.S.C. used to use a ballistic penduum, that showed
how much oooommmpphhh the load you were going to use at each competition, packed.  The scoring was adjusted according to how much power, (And Recoil!!!) your loads packed. The more powerful loads were scored higher, just as they would have scored in a real gunfight when the chips were down!  This made it fair for everyone. For the really skilled Pistol shot, would use the more powerful ammo, and score accordingly, whereas the others, who sought to make things easier on themselves, scored less!
            I now always refer to SASS , as, Silly A-Holes-Shooting Squibs!
                                                                                          Gunslinger9378.
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: BOOMSTICK BRUCE on April 11, 2017, 11:32:17 AM
so the thought is to machine the cylinder to accept the necked down cartridge like the chamber of an SKS accepts the 7.62x38 round not to just bore it straight through. we all know that the .36 remington is just a .44 cylinder with smaller chambers and bore which is dimentionally identical iand is also why they are so much heavier than the .44's so using a .38S&W bullet in the necked down .45case in a .38 conversion cylinder machined to accept the cartridge would make for a very interesting wildcat round is what i was thinking
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Yolla Bolly Brad on April 11, 2017, 11:59:10 AM
  I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't work Bruce. Bottle neck rounds have been used in revolvers before and they seem to work OK if the pressure is kept low. If I was going to attempt it I'd get a mold that would cast the bullet to bore size and then design the cartridge around that. Typically a chamber reamer is used to finish the enlarged chambers, so you'd have the cost of a custom reamer to consider.
  It would be an interesting round to look at. Something like a 38-40 on steroids.
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Omnivore on April 11, 2017, 12:05:59 PM
Suzuki; I don't think anyone but Yolla understood your idea.  Since it's a 36 barrel, and since you're custom contouring the chamber, of course you can choose the neck size and throat to accept a .375" - .380" bullet or which ever would run proper in the barrel.  No reason to use a heeled bullet, or a hollow base unless you design it that way, and there's no reason to design it that way.  The heeled bullet only comes into play in conversions that keep the original percussion chamber diameter.  Since you're substantially re-chamberings the cylinder, you can make it work any which way you choose.

So; you're looking to get a BUNCH more powder behind a 36 bullet in standard size revolver.  That would be the only reason to do it.

Generally speaking, I don't know that a bottle-necked charge in black powder is a good idea.  At the moment I can't think of any original black powder cartridge that isn't straight-sided.  Of course there's no reason you can't bottle-neck a percussion chamber for that matter, and leave the brass case out of the equation.  I've thought of that for some years now.

I suppose you should start by defining the problem you're trying to solve.  The classic 36 revolver is too underpowered?  For what?   So go with a 44.  Now what's the problem?

Then again you could try it just because it's fun and interesting.  My thought has been to get a few more grains of powder in a Remington 44 Army cylinder by slightly bottle-necking it, probably starting from scratch, using better steel.  Of course you'd have to be more careful to control your seating depths, but it would work.  That is as an alternative to using a longer cylinder, such as in a Dragoon.
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Yolla Bolly Brad on April 11, 2017, 12:12:44 PM

  At the moment I can't think of any original black powder cartridge that isn't straight-sided. 


I believe the 38-40 Winchester was originally a black powder cartridge intended for both rifle and revolvers.
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Yolla Bolly Brad on April 11, 2017, 12:14:59 PM
Bruce, there would also be the consideration of reloading dies for a non-standard cartridge.
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: ssb73q on April 11, 2017, 12:40:39 PM
Hi Omnivore, seems you don't understand that the bore of .36 caliber BP revolvers is too large for the .357 bullet.

Also, the conversion 38 Colt/38 Special cylinder is a 6-shot cylinder where there isn't enough room to bore a .45 Colt chamber. One even needs to do "tricks" to produce a 6-shot .45 Colt cylinder for the 1858.

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: DD4lifeusmc on April 11, 2017, 12:47:03 PM
Hi Omnivore, seems you don't understand that the bore of .36 caliber BP revolvers is too large for the .357 bullet.

Also, the conversion 38 Colt/38 Special cylinder is a 6-shot cylinder where there isn't enough room to bore a .45 Colt chamber. One even needs to do "tricks" to produce a 6-shot .45 Colt cylinder for the 1858.

Regards,
Richard

I said that way up above.
the .38 cal bullet is only   .357     the standard (????) bore of a BP .36 cal is .375 / .380

TWENTY THREE  THOUSANDTHS  BIGGER  THAN THE BULLET.

your bullet would go down the barrel like a bowling ball in the gutter in a bowling alley.

You will need a new barrel or have that one sleeved.
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Yolla Bolly Brad on April 11, 2017, 03:26:38 PM

Also, the conversion 38 Colt/38 Special cylinder is a 6-shot cylinder where there isn't enough room to bore a .45 Colt chamber. One even needs to do "tricks" to produce a 6-shot .45 Colt cylinder for the 1858.

Regards,
Richard

Good point Richard, I forgot about that. Even a 44 Spl.  case wouldn't fit unless the rims were tuned down to a smaller diameter.
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Omnivore on April 11, 2017, 04:19:40 PM
Quote
Hi Omnivore, seems you don't understand that the bore of .36 caliber BP revolvers is too large for the .357 bullet.


Yes.  That's why I said you'd want a .375" - .380" bullet, and went on about it.  and yes; forget all about using a .357" bullet of any design, as there's no reason for it.

So anyway; are we looking at a black powder cartridge, or smokeless?  A regular 38 Colt or 38 Spec. case holds a LOT of smokeless powder (having been designed for black powder).  Elmer Keith loaded up the 38 Spec. to 357 Magnum energies, and the only reason for the longer 357 case is so it can't be chambered in weaker 38 Special revolvers.  So if you're talking smokeless you're apparently wanting significantly more power than the 357 Magnum or even the 357 Maximum.

So if you're going for more case capacity then I have to assume you're talking about black powder.

This is sort of along the lines of the 357 Sig (40 S&W case necked down to .357") or the 40 Corbon (45 ACP case necked down to 40).  You're talking about going down two sizes though, for a black powder case that holds around 35 grains behind a .375" bullet.

Quote
I believe the 38-40 Winchester was originally a black powder cartridge intended for both rifle and revolvers.

Ah yes; thanks for that.  Also the 44-40 has a very slight "shoulder" to it.  Those have a very slight bottlenecks though, compared to modern smokeless bottleneck cases.  The 38-40 is more like a 45 case necked to 40, but gradually, unlike the 40 Corbon and 357 Sig, which both have a fairly abrupt shoulder.

I'm still at a loss as to exactly what the purpose would be.  I could see a bottlenecked 36 cartridge (or percussion cylinder) for black powder, for the sole purpose of increasing energy without increasing the length of the cylinder or frame.  What purpose it would serve, that a 44 does not serve, I'd need to have better explained.  I could see it being used in a carbine to deliver 44 energies to greater distances with a smaller bullet cross section for a lower ballistic coeficient, but in a pistol I'm not so sure about its purpose.

Quote
Good point Richard, I forgot about that. Even a 44 Spl.  case wouldn't fit unless the rims were tuned down to a smaller diameter.

There are six shot conversion cylinders in 45 Colt, so that's really not a hard limitation if you have the machining ability.

You could use 44 Long Colt as the parent case.  Wouldn't have the capacity of the 45 Colt but it'd fit fine as a six shot, with no special machining tricks.  It also wouldn't have as abrupt a shoulder as going from 45 to .375.  Or as I've said; do away with the brass case altogether, modify the percussion cylinder and run it as a percussion gun.

But for what purpose?
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: ssb73q on April 11, 2017, 07:58:50 PM
Hi Omnivore, I suggest that you do more research. Seems there is a lot on this topic you don't understand.

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: BOOMSTICK BRUCE on April 11, 2017, 08:16:12 PM
Quote
Hi Omnivore, seems you don't understand that the bore of .36 caliber BP revolvers is too large for the .357 bullet.



I'm still at a loss as to exactly what the purpose would be.  I could see a bottlenecked 36 cartridge (or percussion cylinder) for black powder, for the sole purpose of increasing energy without increasing the length of the cylinder or frame.  What purpose it would serve, that a 44 does not serve, I'd need to have better explained.  I could see it being used in a carbine to deliver 44 energies to greater distances with a smaller bullet cross section for a lower ballistic coeficient, but in a pistol I'm not so sure about its purpose.


But for what purpose?

just wondering if it can be done... not trying to improve anything, just thinking it would be something different, like the .50 conversion of the ROA, or the .45 brimstone walker...
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: ssb73q on April 12, 2017, 08:55:43 AM
Hi Bruce, I took a Taylor 38 Colt/38 Special conversion cylinder and placed six .45 ACP rounds (0.480 rim) over the chambers. There is not near enough metal on the conversion cylinder to bore out to 0.480", the diameter of a .45 Colt round. Also, the .45 Colt rims wouldn't clear each other.

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: BOOMSTICK BRUCE on April 12, 2017, 10:30:29 AM
Ok, so the .36 Remington is smaller than the .44? I thought they were the same just smaller bores.
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Rebel Dave on April 12, 2017, 11:26:22 AM
You could get a .38 special in an open top conversion, or an 1872 mod Colt, and be done with it.
Lot less money, also.

Rebel Dave
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Omnivore on April 12, 2017, 02:24:46 PM
Quote
just thinking it would be something different, like the .50 conversion of the ROA, or the .45 brimstone walker...

Yes, well the 50 ROA has the benefit (for what it's worth) of using the same round ball as your rifle, quite different from having a 45 rifle and a 44 revolver which take very different size balls.  I haven't seen the term "45 Brimstone" before, but the 45 BPM (Black Powder Magnum) has the benefit of making use of the Walker's extra cylinder length, allowing one to use Walker power lever charges in a metal cartridge.  So in each instance there is a rationale, or a goal, which says "I want to be able to do x, and there's currently no way of doing it, therefore I will do a custom build to accomplish x.

I think you have a potentially nifty idea.  I just haven't heard what "x" is yet.  If we knew "x" we'd be able to talk more clearly about this.

Also I believe the percussion cylinders for the 36 and 44 Remington repros are the same exact exterior dimensions in the same frame.  Conversion cylinders may very well be another matter.

None the less, there are six shot, 45 Colt conversion cylinders for the Remingtons unless I'm very much mistaken.  In that case, you see that there is in fact room for a six shot 36 SM (36 Suzuki Magnum) based on a 45 Colt case.  You'd have to make your own cylinder from stratch though, most likely.  The six shot 45 Colts use an angled chamber to make room for the case heads.

Otherwise base it on a 38 Spec cylinder and machine it out to take a 44 Colt case and a .375" larget bullet.  Again; the 44 Colt and 44 Remington cartridges were originally created to fit in the converted percussion cylinders, so if nothing else, there's your answer-- You'd just have to start with a 38 Spec. cylinder and open it up accordingly.

But first things first; what is "x"?  Maybe there are multiple ways to accomplish "x".

It's totally doable in some similar form, one way or another.
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Yolla Bolly Brad on April 12, 2017, 06:20:17 PM
I've never owned or examined a 36 cal. 1858. Do the cylinders have the same bolt circle diameter as the 44's?
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Omnivore on April 12, 2017, 10:56:09 PM
I've read from other members on this forum that the 36 and 44 cylinders are interchangeable.  That'd be something of a safety hazard, but that's why I remember reading it.  The law of cheap and simple manufacturing alone would suggest that they use the very same arbor-- Why inventory more parts if it isn't strictly necessary?  Change only those parts that are caliber specific.  Take the same frame, barrel, loading lever and cylinder, make smaller holes and a smaller plunger and you're done.  Well, safety would be one reason to make the cylinders not interchangeable, so I can't say I actually know beyond what I read here.

I any case, if you have the ability to re-cut the chambers to a consistent bottleneck shape you can certainly deal with any difference in arbor diameter.

One thought I had after reading that the two cylinders interchange was to build a 36 Buffalo or a 36 carbine.  Get a 375 barrel blank, fit it to the 44 frame, swap out the cylinder and plunger for the 36 versions, and Bob's your uncle.  Maybe you'd have to build a custom plunger, I don't know, but we know how to do that.  You can already get a 36 "Carbine" Colt Navy barrel.  It's 12 inches.  I got one in 44 but they sell them in 36 also.  Therefore the "cool" caliber swap would be the Remington Carbine, for a 36 caliber revolver with a 22" barrel like they made back in the day.

Or so I've been thinking.  "What's it for?" would be the question though of course.  "Shootin' stuff" is the only definite answer I have at the moment, but then you can do that with lots of other, already existing guns, so maybe the right answer is: "For fun and because I can"
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Yolla Bolly Brad on April 13, 2017, 01:49:40 AM
Omnivore,
               That's what I would have figured, that the only difference between 36 and 44 cal 1858's is the diameters of the chambers and barrel bore. Assuming that the 36 cal cylinders have their chambers located on the same 1.00" diameter bolt circle as the 44 cylinders, I made a CAD drawing to see what the biggest case can be used without resorting to boring the chambers at an angle to the arbor hole. The case rims will touch when they get to a diameter of .500". So the 41 Colt brass would be an excellent candidate with its rim diameter of .432" and body diameter of .405". Not to mention there's that cool factor of having a head stamp on the cases of an obsolete cartridge. However, to get the biggest possible case to fit, a 44 spl/mag case would be the way to go. It's .514" diameter rim would need to be turned down to .495" and it's body diameter of .457" would still leave .040" wall thickness between chambers.

If you needed a "practical" excuse for building your concept 36 cal 1858 carbine, I guess you could say its a short to medium range squirrel or varmint rifle.
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: 45 Dragoon on April 13, 2017, 05:44:59 AM
 )L$

I think Omni and Yolla are the only ones that DO know what is going on here!!
 Why in the world would you neck down a case smaller than what is suitable for the existing bore?  Lol!

Omnivore, on your idea of a necked down bp cyl. , I have a Walker in the shop (owned by Jaxenro) that has a lined barrel (.375") and cylinder inserts for the .36 cal ball/conical. The chambers open up to the original dementions allowing a rather stout charge of bp. Don't know what the max. charge is but it's definitely  going to be a ".36 Mag!!?"

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: ssb73q on April 13, 2017, 05:46:17 AM
Hi, this is the way to do a wildcat:

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2012/05/17/25000-fps-handgun-cartridge/

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Omnivore on April 13, 2017, 04:21:28 PM
Quote
I have a Walker in the shop (owned by Jaxenro) that has a lined barrel (.375") and cylinder inserts for the .36 cal ball/conical. The chambers open up to the original dementions allowing a rather stout charge of bp. Don't know what the max. charge is but it's definitely  going to be a ".36 Mag!!?"

Yikes.  "From there to here, and here to there, funny things are everywhere..."
I'd considered the possibility of chamber inserts but sort of dismissed it.  So; how are the inserts held in place?  Soldered, welded, threaded?  How deep do the inserts go, and what sort of internal "shoulder" profile do they have?  Is cleaning the chambers much more difficult?  Also; what was the user's reasoning or goal in reducing the caliber of a Walker?  It'd be interesting to have some load detail and chrono data on that.
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Hawg on April 13, 2017, 04:44:53 PM
Otherwise base it on a 38 Spec cylinder and machine it out to take a 44 Colt case and a .375" larget bullet.  Again; the 44 Colt and 44 Remington cartridges were originally created to fit in the converted percussion cylinders, so if nothing else, there's your answer-- You'd just have to start with a 38 Spec. cylinder and open it up accordingly.

Other than a slightly larger bullet(.401)you'd basically have a 38-40.
Title: Re: .38 wildcat?
Post by: Yolla Bolly Brad on April 13, 2017, 07:04:28 PM
Yes you would. Case diameter is a little bigger (.008").