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General Black Powder Discussions => Powder => Topic started by: BlackpowderJim on August 05, 2016, 02:08:53 PM

Title: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: BlackpowderJim on August 05, 2016, 02:08:53 PM
I was going to add this to a previous topic but the banner that appeared said I should start a new one. I read a lot of responses that you should decrease the load by at least 10%. Hell, I just load like normal and everything appears to be fine. There is a slightly stronger "crack" when I load the standard 30 grain in the .44, but the sighting and point of impact is pretty consistent. Anyway, I enjoy this powder because cleanup is a breeze. No fancy solvents, just water...H20 or di- hydrogen oxide does the job. The fouling is easily dealt with and the wife does not scream at me to "take that smelly thing outside." Win/win.  By the way, I got a new 1858 Remington for my wife. I think I got the better bargain.  {?|
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: jdurand on August 05, 2016, 05:18:05 PM
Is it odd my wife doesn't complain about oil smells?  Then again, as a child she helped her father make smoke sticks and then as an adult cut, bent, and welded steel.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: DD4lifeusmc on August 05, 2016, 07:52:00 PM
the approximate 10% reduction has nothing to do with safety.
Rather since the powder is a bit more "energetic" to get approximately the same
fps and trajectory and ft# of energy  which are all interdependent on each other
then they recommend the reduction.
But like you I just go ahead and load normally  and haven't really noticed any difference.
Just need to learn how and where your gun shoots with different loads and powders and projectile weights.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: G Dog on August 05, 2016, 08:30:55 PM
BP Jim -- Hi. What DD said.

15% actually.  That used to spook me. I didn't want to get blew up. The boys here said na, don’t worry about it and explained T7 properties on that thread you were probably referring to.  I’ll use 30 grains in a .44 anytime now and get fine safe results. 

It’s hot stuff though.  T7 may be the wrong powder to use for experimenting with how much you can cram in.  For a stout load one may rarely exceed 35 grains of anything anyway
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Prospector on August 06, 2016, 08:04:26 AM
I agree with what DD and G-Dog said.   Unless you want to duplicate the ballistics of a particular load, just use the same measured volume as you would use with black powder or other substitutes.  30 grains of any of it will be fine and safe in any STEEL framed gun.   Now, if you are loading it into a brass framed gun, I would not go over 25 grains, and probably use around 20 grains for my every day loads.  I am assuming that you are talking about a 44 caliber revolver.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: BlackpowderJim on August 06, 2016, 10:53:54 AM
@Prospector: Yep, all my BP revolvers are steel frames. I once ordered a fancy nickel plated engraved revolver from Cabelas and found out that it was a brass frame. I sent that puppy back post haste.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: ssb73q on August 06, 2016, 12:43:48 PM
Hi Jim, yes T7 is the most energetic propellant that can be used in BP firearms. The only negative I have ever seen for this power is that it is more difficult to ignite than BP and that it may leave a ring of debris in the chamber that is extremely difficult to remove. I have seen reports of it going bad when loaded for an extended period, but my neighbor that kept his 1858 loaded with T7 for over a year had every chamber fire, with authority.

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: G Dog on August 06, 2016, 03:43:30 PM
... and found out that it was a brass frame. I sent that puppy back post haste.

You did the right thing on that one.  If a particular brasser is historically accurate then well and good.  Otherwise, I'll pass on brass.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Hylander on November 23, 2016, 11:37:49 AM
I have been using 777 since it first came out.
Got rid of all other powders.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: necessaryevil on November 23, 2016, 12:29:45 PM
I love the stuff. it is SO clean and definitely gives more bang for your buck in volume for volume charges the same as 3ffg. Thing is I brought some from the England to Spain this year and I can't buy any more here because it's not available. Otherwise as a dyed in the wool non traditionalist who hates cleaning guns I would not use anything else.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Cross Plains Drifter on November 25, 2016, 06:32:46 PM
tried T7 several times and between myself and co-workers have experienced several FTFs with Rem &/or CCI caps & 777.
still wondering about the long term effects of citric acid base on gun metal......remember, Pyrodex was origionally advertised as "less corrosive" too.

I'll stick with real black....at least I know what it does and how it shoots......and that it goes BANG w/o fail.

think about this........BP substitutes are called "safety powders" because they're harder to ignite......
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Omnivore on November 25, 2016, 09:52:18 PM
Quote
No fancy solvents, just water...

In that respect it's just like black powder then.  Water has been the solvent of choice for BP for hundreds of years.

Quote
The only negative I have ever seen for this power is that it is more difficult to ignite than BP and that it may leave a ring of debris in the chamber that is extremely difficult to remove.

I get a crud ring with BP too.  I notice it in the 50 cal rifle when swabbing between shots.  It's difficult to get the patch back up from the bottom, past the crud ring, until I've gone past it once or twice with a spit patch.

I haven't used a lot of T7, and mostly I used it in revolvers, but so far it has ignited just fine.  I'd have to shoot a lot more of it to have much of an opinion.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Hawg on November 26, 2016, 08:18:49 AM
I don't use it. I can't justify the cost. I can have Swiss shipped for almost the same amount of money. As far as subs go I like Pyrodex. It may not be less corrosive than black but it's certainly not any more corrosive than black.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: old fogey on November 26, 2016, 04:53:52 PM
Don't know (hopefully shall find out soon,) 'cause I bought a lb of Triple Se7en out at Gander Mountain (one of the few local places that carry it - percussion guns don't have many fans along the border, no one hardly shoots for "sport" here)!
                                      Basically bought it 'cause I wanted as much "oomph" behind that 240 grain bullet y'alls tired of hearing about (did buy a .451" sizer for them, only have three of my 6 cylinders bored to .4535" to accept those big honking Kaido bullets,) and figured that 777 was the way to get as much impact energy out of them that they could deliver!
                                                     Thinking of starting @ 25 grains, wad (maybe 2 wads at lower 777 amounts,) and bullet, and basically shoot about 6 cylinders from bench-rest at 50', and go up on powder from there (see if any offers significantly better groups than others)!
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Omnivore on November 26, 2016, 10:02:45 PM
I'd be interested, Fogey, in learning the results of your upcoming experiments.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: old fogey on November 27, 2016, 06:44:13 AM
After I get my chrony (either December or maybe January at the latest,) I'll post the results (won't near like the results you posted, you junior scientist you -  ;) - but you'll find 'em this section as soon as I get 'em)!

 Might even throw in some pho-tee-graphs fer the young uns so they can follow along (and some pretty multi-color bar-graphs fer us "boomers" as a bonus)!  :9)
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Dellbert on November 27, 2016, 08:32:10 PM
I've been using 35 grs of Triple 7 fff with a .457 prb in my ROA and it shoots pretty hot with that load. I'm thinking about backing off to 30 grs and that should be just about right. I don't use triple 7 in any other black powder guns.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Cross Plains Drifter on November 27, 2016, 10:16:37 PM
one of my co-workers had 6 CCI caps go off behind a trio of T7 pellets w/o setting the charge off.....(inline .50 cal bolt gun still using percussion caps)
all while 3 buck deer wandered under his treestand......

wormed the maxi slug out .....said the powder charges looked fine....( don't quite know what "looked fine" meant)
reloaded with new slug and it went off as intended (in his backyard, at a target)

still won't consider switching back to real BP for some reason

go figure......
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: old fogey on November 28, 2016, 06:39:40 PM
Maybe they just needed one of Johnny's "primer" charges of 5-10 grains of real black powder (heard that 777 pellets are hard to set off - still wonder if that's a result of the compressed nature of the pellet as it was determined by Johnny to be the case with Pyro pellets as well).
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: BlackpowderJim on December 02, 2016, 01:57:06 PM
I have been using the 777 powder with the Cabela's pre-lubed wads in my Colt Army and Remington '58, and have had no trouble since I shoot them soon after loading. Would there be any problems in leaving them loaded with the 777 powder and pre-lubed wads for a period of time without the lubricant in the patches contaminating the powder?
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: ssb73q on December 02, 2016, 02:39:09 PM
Hi Jim, my neighbor uses lubed wads, see:
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=10426.msg178206#msg178206

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Omnivore on December 02, 2016, 03:00:45 PM
Quote
Would there be any problems in leaving them loaded with the 777 powder and pre-lubed wads for a period of time without the lubricant in the patches contaminating the powder?

BPJ; Lube in direct contact with the propellent, whether it's a powder or a pellet, whether the lube seeps in through a nipple that was left with oil in it or whether it's lube in a wad or a lube cookie, will degrade the propellant's power over time.  How much will depend on the amount of comtamination, the consistency and composition of the lube, the time in-contact, and the temperature.

One way to mitigate that is to use a tight-fitting card between the powder and the wad.

This brings up your intent and purpose for leaving the gun loaded.  Johnnie's purpose was self defense.  Leaving the question of the wisdom of keeping a percussion revolver for self defense aside; his solution was to load dry, and apply lube over a tight-fitting ball.  Lube over the ball does very little compared to lube inder the ball, but in a self defense scenario you almost certainly would not care.

When I took a percussion revolver out hunting, I loaded it with a card between the powder and the lube pill, and was prepaired to leave it loaded for the whole two weeks of hunting season, or until I made the shot.  I use a slightly under-sized card however (because I make paper cartridges, and they have a taper for easy loading - if you're using loose ammunition, you want a larger, tight-fitting card), and so there is almost certainly some small amount of lube that contacts the powder.  I use a lube consisting of only waxes and tallow, so any degradation, in our cold weather, would be minimal and take place only over a longer period of time.  On the flip side; I've had the commercial lubed wads (using Bore Butter or similar lube) result in a VERY weak shot after remaining loaded for a few weeks.

And so there are several variables, and it is up to the shooter to determine what works.  In general, if you're lubing under the bullet and you, for some reason, want to leave it loaded for extended periods, you'll want a harder lube, or one with no liquid components to it, you'll probably want a card between powder and lube, and you'll want to avoid letting the gun get hot (such as leaving it in a car on a hot day in the sun).

Don't forget the possibility of contamination from lube already in the chamber after cleaning, or in the nipple's flash channel, either.  An oily nipple can kill the main charge, cause a major ignition delay, or kill the priming compound in the cap.

So; after all that, why do you want to leave the gun loaded?  I carry a Glock for social work, for instance.  Hunting would be the only other reason, because you don't want to be loading and unloading every day during the season.  In that case though, most people are telling me that their states' regulations do not allow a percussion revolver for most hunting.  Here in WA State, the rules point to one possible perc rev, and that's the Colt Walker, due to its chamber capacity and barrel length, even then only one chamber may be loaded.  All other models I know of would be verboten, either because of the shorter barrel lengths or the shorter chambers, and mostly because of both.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Hylander on December 04, 2016, 12:58:20 AM
I have been using the 777 powder with the Cabela's pre-lubed wads in my Colt Army and Remington '58, and have had no trouble since I shoot them soon after loading. Would there be any problems in leaving them loaded with the 777 powder and pre-lubed wads for a period of time without the lubricant in the patches contaminating the powder?

I have left loaded cylinders for up to 3 weeks and have noticed no difference.
30r. 777 under a lubed felt wad.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: BlackpowderJim on December 05, 2016, 11:24:20 PM
 
I have left loaded cylinders for up to 3 weeks and have noticed no difference.
30r. 777 under a lubed felt wad.
[/quote]

I probably would not leave the pistol loaded for more than a few weeks. Good to know it still fires after 3 weeks. I once left my .36 caliber Navy loaded for close to a year with no problems, but that was using regular bp with the bullet seated directly on the powder and topped with Crisco.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: ssb73q on December 06, 2016, 10:40:10 AM
Hi Jim, I think that a BP revolver can be kept loaded for over a year if using CCI caps. Not too long ago I learned that the new "hotter" Remington caps fail to ignite if kept loaded on the revolver for a few months. The issue is caps, not powder.

My neighbor kept his 1858 loaded with T7 and CCI caps for over a year. The revolver was then fired with authority.

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Hylander on December 10, 2016, 07:41:49 PM
Hi Jim, I think that a BP revolver can be kept loaded for over a year if using CCI caps. Not too long ago I learned that the new "hotter" Remington caps fail to ignite if kept loaded on the revolver for a few months. The issue is caps, not powder.

My neighbor kept his 1858 loaded with T7 and CCI caps for over a year. The revolver was then fired with authority.

Regards,
Richard

Just curious why a cap would go bad ?
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: jdurand on December 10, 2016, 08:44:15 PM
moisture, oil, charge falls out, charge was never there, works up on nipple so it doesn't crush right, ...
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: ssb73q on December 10, 2016, 09:18:15 PM
Hi Hylander, IMO the new hotter Remington caps has something in the primer compound that is hygroscopic.

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: rodwha on January 05, 2017, 05:28:50 AM
Interesting. I've always reloaded my Remington using T7 and Rem #10's and was at the range no less than once a month. However we moved and Ammon longer conveniently located near enough to an outdoor range (it's been about 2 1/2 years now). I'll be interested to see what I find out the day I do pull the trigger.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Hylander on January 05, 2017, 06:39:03 PM
Hi Hylander, IMO the new hotter Remington caps has something in the primer compound that is hygroscopic.

Regards,
Richard

Hey Richard,
Don't know anything about that as I don't cap them until I  load them in the revolver.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Omnivore on January 05, 2017, 08:07:43 PM
If the primer compound were hygroscopic, then one way to protect it from humidity would be to push it on to a nipple, over a loaded chamber.

If a hygroscopic primer compound will go bad when sitting over a nipple, then surely it would go bad in less time if it were exposed to the open air inside my house, near the kitchen.  And yet I have been known to leave Remington caps sitting in my straight-line capper, hanging on a lanyard over a music stand, completely exposed to inside air, for up to a year, winter, spring, summer, and fall, no air conditioning, on warm, rainy days, while canning and brewing and such in the kitchen, with no ill effects.  Oh and I live 50 yards from a river, so the dew in summer is often impressive.

Thus it is not hygroscopic, or certainly not enough so to matter.  Soak it in water, sure, or hunt in the rain and fail to re-prime for the next day's hunt, or expose it to oil that's in the nipple (and I'll bet that that right there is the common issue) and it's going to fail.

There's nothing special about black powder and percussion caps that makes either one more likely to fail over time than a good metal cartridge, except in the way we clean, maintain, load and store our guns, and we're still seeing a bit of World War Two ammunition, now all over seventy years old and still perfectly good ammo.  I have cans of black powder that are years old, and I have every expectation that the powder is perfect.  Whether in the can with the lid on, or in a gun's chamber with a cap over the nipple and a bullet over the chamber mouth, what's the difference?  It all depends on how you handle the loading, or more importantly, the pre-loading routine,
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: Cross Plains Drifter on January 06, 2017, 04:35:49 PM
I must say that once I settled on the charge, 3F T7 powder makes some very accurate .38 Spl & .45 LC BPC loads.
Title: Re: Triple Seven Powder
Post by: BlackpowderJim on January 08, 2017, 01:16:52 PM
Great idea! I will load a batch of .44/40's using Trip 7 for my 1875 Remington and see how they work.