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Author Topic: .38 wildcat?  (Read 231 times)

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Offline SUZUKIBRUCE

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Re: .38 wildcat?
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2017, 09:16:12 PM »
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Hi Omnivore, seems you don't understand that the bore of .36 caliber BP revolvers is too large for the .357 bullet.



I'm still at a loss as to exactly what the purpose would be.  I could see a bottlenecked 36 cartridge (or percussion cylinder) for black powder, for the sole purpose of increasing energy without increasing the length of the cylinder or frame.  What purpose it would serve, that a 44 does not serve, I'd need to have better explained.  I could see it being used in a carbine to deliver 44 energies to greater distances with a smaller bullet cross section for a lower ballistic coeficient, but in a pistol I'm not so sure about its purpose.


But for what purpose?

just wondering if it can be done... not trying to improve anything, just thinking it would be something different, like the .50 conversion of the ROA, or the .45 brimstone walker...
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: .38 wildcat?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2017, 09:55:43 AM »
Hi Bruce, I took a Taylor 38 Colt/38 Special conversion cylinder and placed six .45 ACP rounds (0.480 rim) over the chambers. There is not near enough metal on the conversion cylinder to bore out to 0.480", the diameter of a .45 Colt round. Also, the .45 Colt rims wouldn't clear each other.

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Offline SUZUKIBRUCE

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Re: .38 wildcat?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2017, 11:30:29 AM »
Ok, so the .36 Remington is smaller than the .44? I thought they were the same just smaller bores.
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Offline Rebel Dave

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Re: .38 wildcat?
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2017, 12:26:22 PM »
You could get a .38 special in an open top conversion, or an 1872 mod Colt, and be done with it.
Lot less money, also.

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Offline Omnivore

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Re: .38 wildcat?
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2017, 03:24:46 PM »
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just thinking it would be something different, like the .50 conversion of the ROA, or the .45 brimstone walker...

Yes, well the 50 ROA has the benefit (for what it's worth) of using the same round ball as your rifle, quite different from having a 45 rifle and a 44 revolver which take very different size balls.  I haven't seen the term "45 Brimstone" before, but the 45 BPM (Black Powder Magnum) has the benefit of making use of the Walker's extra cylinder length, allowing one to use Walker power lever charges in a metal cartridge.  So in each instance there is a rationale, or a goal, which says "I want to be able to do x, and there's currently no way of doing it, therefore I will do a custom build to accomplish x.

I think you have a potentially nifty idea.  I just haven't heard what "x" is yet.  If we knew "x" we'd be able to talk more clearly about this.

Also I believe the percussion cylinders for the 36 and 44 Remington repros are the same exact exterior dimensions in the same frame.  Conversion cylinders may very well be another matter.

None the less, there are six shot, 45 Colt conversion cylinders for the Remingtons unless I'm very much mistaken.  In that case, you see that there is in fact room for a six shot 36 SM (36 Suzuki Magnum) based on a 45 Colt case.  You'd have to make your own cylinder from stratch though, most likely.  The six shot 45 Colts use an angled chamber to make room for the case heads.

Otherwise base it on a 38 Spec cylinder and machine it out to take a 44 Colt case and a .375" larget bullet.  Again; the 44 Colt and 44 Remington cartridges were originally created to fit in the converted percussion cylinders, so if nothing else, there's your answer-- You'd just have to start with a 38 Spec. cylinder and open it up accordingly.

But first things first; what is "x"?  Maybe there are multiple ways to accomplish "x".

It's totally doable in some similar form, one way or another.

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: .38 wildcat?
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2017, 07:20:17 PM »
I've never owned or examined a 36 cal. 1858. Do the cylinders have the same bolt circle diameter as the 44's?
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline Omnivore

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Re: .38 wildcat?
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2017, 11:56:09 PM »
I've read from other members on this forum that the 36 and 44 cylinders are interchangeable.  That'd be something of a safety hazard, but that's why I remember reading it.  The law of cheap and simple manufacturing alone would suggest that they use the very same arbor-- Why inventory more parts if it isn't strictly necessary?  Change only those parts that are caliber specific.  Take the same frame, barrel, loading lever and cylinder, make smaller holes and a smaller plunger and you're done.  Well, safety would be one reason to make the cylinders not interchangeable, so I can't say I actually know beyond what I read here.

I any case, if you have the ability to re-cut the chambers to a consistent bottleneck shape you can certainly deal with any difference in arbor diameter.

One thought I had after reading that the two cylinders interchange was to build a 36 Buffalo or a 36 carbine.  Get a 375 barrel blank, fit it to the 44 frame, swap out the cylinder and plunger for the 36 versions, and Bob's your uncle.  Maybe you'd have to build a custom plunger, I don't know, but we know how to do that.  You can already get a 36 "Carbine" Colt Navy barrel.  It's 12 inches.  I got one in 44 but they sell them in 36 also.  Therefore the "cool" caliber swap would be the Remington Carbine, for a 36 caliber revolver with a 22" barrel like they made back in the day.

Or so I've been thinking.  "What's it for?" would be the question though of course.  "Shootin' stuff" is the only definite answer I have at the moment, but then you can do that with lots of other, already existing guns, so maybe the right answer is: "For fun and because I can"

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: .38 wildcat?
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2017, 02:49:40 AM »
Omnivore,
               That's what I would have figured, that the only difference between 36 and 44 cal 1858's is the diameters of the chambers and barrel bore. Assuming that the 36 cal cylinders have their chambers located on the same 1.00" diameter bolt circle as the 44 cylinders, I made a CAD drawing to see what the biggest case can be used without resorting to boring the chambers at an angle to the arbor hole. The case rims will touch when they get to a diameter of .500". So the 41 Colt brass would be an excellent candidate with its rim diameter of .432" and body diameter of .405". Not to mention there's that cool factor of having a head stamp on the cases of an obsolete cartridge. However, to get the biggest possible case to fit, a 44 spl/mag case would be the way to go. It's .514" diameter rim would need to be turned down to .495" and it's body diameter of .457" would still leave .040" wall thickness between chambers.

If you needed a "practical" excuse for building your concept 36 cal 1858 carbine, I guess you could say its a short to medium range squirrel or varmint rifle.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: .38 wildcat?
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2017, 06:44:59 AM »
 )L$

I think Omni and Yolla are the only ones that DO know what is going on here!!
 Why in the world would you neck down a case smaller than what is suitable for the existing bore?  Lol!

Omnivore, on your idea of a necked down bp cyl. , I have a Walker in the shop (owned by Jaxenro) that has a lined barrel (.375") and cylinder inserts for the .36 cal ball/conical. The chambers open up to the original dementions allowing a rather stout charge of bp. Don't know what the max. charge is but it's definitely  going to be a ".36 Mag!!?"

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Offline ssb73q

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Re: .38 wildcat?
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2017, 06:46:17 AM »
Hi, this is the way to do a wildcat:

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2012/05/17/25000-fps-handgun-cartridge/

Regards,
Richard
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: .38 wildcat?
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2017, 05:21:28 PM »
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I have a Walker in the shop (owned by Jaxenro) that has a lined barrel (.375") and cylinder inserts for the .36 cal ball/conical. The chambers open up to the original dementions allowing a rather stout charge of bp. Don't know what the max. charge is but it's definitely  going to be a ".36 Mag!!?"

Yikes.  "From there to here, and here to there, funny things are everywhere..."
I'd considered the possibility of chamber inserts but sort of dismissed it.  So; how are the inserts held in place?  Soldered, welded, threaded?  How deep do the inserts go, and what sort of internal "shoulder" profile do they have?  Is cleaning the chambers much more difficult?  Also; what was the user's reasoning or goal in reducing the caliber of a Walker?  It'd be interesting to have some load detail and chrono data on that.

Offline Hawg

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Re: .38 wildcat?
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2017, 05:44:53 PM »
Otherwise base it on a 38 Spec cylinder and machine it out to take a 44 Colt case and a .375" larget bullet.  Again; the 44 Colt and 44 Remington cartridges were originally created to fit in the converted percussion cylinders, so if nothing else, there's your answer-- You'd just have to start with a 38 Spec. cylinder and open it up accordingly.

Other than a slightly larger bullet(.401)you'd basically have a 38-40.
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Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: .38 wildcat?
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2017, 08:04:28 PM »
Yes you would. Case diameter is a little bigger (.008").
Brad Potter, hardware junky.