Author Topic: 1862 Police purchase  (Read 6733 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Omnivore

  • Ultimate Forum Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 2449
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2015, 03:07:42 PM »
Quote
...the tip of the screw protrudes through the arbor slot and establishes the wedge fit.

Ouch!  That screw is going to peen into the wedge, just like the extra corner in the front of my arbor slot is peening a slot into the wedge (or the wedge mushrooming the tip of the screw, depending on which steel is the harder).  If you've fired it much, I bet you ten bucks it's already happening.  You want maximum surface area there, in contact with the wedge.  It's already quite small, considering that that interface takes ALL of the force from firing which wants to remove the barrel under some ten thoudand+ psi.  The screw might be handy and all, but shimming is a more mechanically sound practice, given the forces involved.

Sorry Mike, for turning your thread into a gunsmithing thread....  It looks like you have a real beauty there.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline G Dog

  • Ultimate Forum Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 3862
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2015, 03:19:37 PM »
For we members in the bleachers, man, this is an A1 thread. Have at it boys!
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".   
                                        Ephesians 6:12  (KJV)

Offline mike116

  • Forum Legend
  • ******
  • Posts: 1974
    • LeathersmithMike.com
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2015, 03:33:13 PM »
Stop worrying about hijacks,   there's good info here for everyone.

Offline sourdough

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2015, 03:52:36 PM »
Quote
For we members in the bleachers, man, this is an A1 thread. Have at it boys!

Quote
Stop worrying about hijacks, there's good info here for everyone.

^^^^ +1 (or +2 or +3: I lost track!).

I don't have an 1861 nor an 1862. I only have a Pietta 1851 Navy steel .36 and 99.99% of all the points addressed here apply to that model, also.

Thanks, guys!

Jim

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2015, 05:31:16 PM »
Quote
...the tip of the screw protrudes through the arbor slot and establishes the wedge fit.

Ouch!  That screw is going to peen into the wedge, just like the extra corner in the front of my arbor slot is peening a slot into the wedge (or the wedge mushrooming the tip of the screw, depending on which steel is the harder).  If you've fired it much, I bet you ten bucks it's already happening.  You want maximum surface area there, in contact with the wedge.  It's already quite small, considering that that interface takes ALL of the force from firing which wants to remove the barrel under some ten thoudand+ psi.  The screw might be handy and all, but shimming is a more mechanically sound practice, given the forces involved.

Sorry Mike, for turning your thread into a gunsmithing thread....  It looks like you have a real beauty there.
I haven't fired it yet to tell the truth, but I will keep an eye on it for gouging when I do. I did polish the tip of the screw and there's been no gauling from the many assemblys I've done on this project.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline sourdough

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2015, 05:46:08 PM »
That was a very nice and detailed write-up you posted. Thank you.

I have a few noob questions that you may be able to clarify, if you have some time.

Quote
I'll do a lengthy write-up at some point, but in short, from what I can recall;
Just as ssb said; all Ubertis seem to have short arbors (or deep arbor bores in the barrel) so the wedge never tightens unless by locking the cylinder.  There is strong evidence to suggest that Colt did this knowingly back in the day, at least on some of his guns.  Still It's a problem.

I don't understand what you mean by locking the cylinder. Does that refer to no barrel/cylinder gap, wherein the barrel forcing cone impinges upon the cylinder rotation?

Quote
Further; the cutout on the arbor, what fits the wedge, has a step in it, such that the wedge impinges not on a flat surface, but on a double surface, and that has been peening a notch into the forward edge of the wedge.  If I file out the double step in the arbor slot, it'll effectively widen the slot, meaning I'll need a new, wider wedge.

My Pietta (new from Cabela's 2014 [CM], not Uberti) 1851 has no such step. The arbor fits the barrel "arbor well" with no slop. I have checked the arbor fit with the barrel at +/- 90* with the frame (good) and the forcing cone/cylinder gap is ~.001". This is after I sanded, fitted, and re-blued the wedge so that the wedge spring would protrude from the barrel just enough to engage.

Quote
"Cap sucking" only partially describes what happens when you fire a round.  That's only part of the story, and several people including Mike Bellivieu (sp?) who has a prominent Youtube presence in the cap and ball world, have missed the nuance of it.  Yes; the hammer spot for the safety pins can help grab the cap and pull it off, but what's being missed is the fact that the little, lightweight hammer is being blown back and the cap is being blown back with it.  The result is that, after the shot is fired you have the hammer resting on a cap down in the hammer channel before you even touch the hammer to re-cock.  It's more like "cap blowing" than "cap sucking" then, see.  Replacing the nipples with ones having smaller flash holes (Tresos in my case) went a long way toward mitigating that problem.  It went from having a cap under the hammer after nearly every shot, to having it maybe once in ten shots, just by replacing the nipples.  Lighter loads with roundball then of course have less tendency to blow caps than stouter loads with conicals.

Wow, I concur most wholeheartedly with you conclusion, but the you further address it below.

Quote
Oh; I had to open up the loading cutout before I could use some of my 36 conicals, and again; it's a common Wap trait.

Quote
Bellivieu's (sp?) treatment of filling in the hammer notch entirely does apparently work, but I intend to solve it and still have my safety pin feature intact.  There are at least two things to try.  Filling the hammer notch, and then, before the epoxy hardens completely, force the hammer into one of the cylinder pins, creating a tiny, round hole in place of the large, rectangular notch in the hammer.  The other cure is to install a vertical, steel pin in the top of the hammer channel in the frame, just behind the cap.  The hammer notch is then deepened accordingly, and at that point the pin in the frame absolutely prevents caps moving backward, and you still have your safety pin feature.

(As an aside, Mike's last name is spelled Belliveau, but he pronounces it like you spell it. My folks are from Michigan and Canada, watch a lot of hockey, and his name would never be pronounced like he does in his YouTube vids, but it is what it is and it ain't what it ain't.)   ;)

Quote
Another issue is spent caps jamming on the frame just to the right of the hammer notch.  The photos of originals I've seen seem to show a much larger cap clearance cutout in the top right hand portion of the recoil shield, which would accommodate spent caps better.  I may at some point open that part of the frame up a little.

With the mods you have suggested previously, I see no reason to mess up the case colors on the frame.

Quote
The wood grip was horribly proud of the metal in several places, and it was very uncomfortable to handle what was otherwise a very attractive and sweet little gun.  I spent a good deal of time taking down the wood, and now you can't feel where the wood ends and the metal begins.  That is possible because of the all-brass grip frame - you take wood and metal down together, and do all the finishing with the whole thing assembled.

My Pietta wood/metal fit is similarly poor (why can't those folks get it right?) especially at the junction of the upper backstrap/frame. I bought a nicely figured stained hardwood grip (from a 2014 Pietta that the guy parted out to sell) on EBay and the fit was exactly the same. When/if I get my brass squareback trigger guard from Taylor's I'll use the plain (original) walnut grip to fit it.

Quote
The cylinder face has deep tool marks, and thus the cylinder gap is significantly wider at some points and narrower at others. This I will not bother with, but it is a bit tacky on Uberti's part.

Mine has some shallow rotary tool marks (it ain't S&W quality) but not too bad. The cylinder face appears to be square with the .001" gap and has no rotational markings.

Quote
As with all Wap guns I have, the trigger guard cutout, where the trigger comes through, had razor sharp edges, and the finish inside the guard was rough as a cob.  I've worked it down some, but to get it really nice, with clean lines and all, would take hours.  Lots of other sharp edges here and there on the gun, which again is par for the course with the Wap repros.  Trigger work is also in order, but that'll come last, and maybe with more use it will smooth up enough that I won't mind the creep.

Check the bolt timing. I dry fired my Pietta at least 300 times without firing it and observed some peening on the cylinder slots due to a "fat" bolt. When trimming it, make sure you trim on the correct side so as to align the bolt face when the cylinder comes up to the fire/full-cock position. You may have to do other mods insofar as the hand is concerned.

Quote
The loading lever latch didn't have enough travel within the lever to keep the lever from flopping around a bit.  It never came unlatched during firing, but it just flopped and rattled while handling, which was annoying - a respectable gun doesn't have personality defects like that.  Knocking out the retaining pin, removing the latch, and filing a deeper notch in it solved that.

My 1851 Pietta load lever latched perfectly, but there was a large amount of slop at the barrel frame screw. A couple of shim washers (one on either side) corrected the slop.

I didn't like the rattle, either.

Wondering if the originals (Walkers, Dragoons, 1849's, 1851's, 1860's, 1861's, 1862's, et al,) had these same problems and the boys (literally) shot them as issued, or was there some campfire gunsmithing going on?

Jim

Offline Pat/Rick

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2015, 06:34:56 PM »
I think alot were used as issued. Likely the "that's just the way it is" train of thought was the rule, rather than the exception. I often wonder if we as a modern society worry about the little things too much? Like in, everything needs a name or a reason and it had better not be offensive, etc.  There certainly wasn't any JB welding a hammer notch, or dremeling a cap channel.  Stuck cap? Quite possibly it was dealt with by using the point of a Barlow knife dug out of a pocket.
Nothing expresses Liberty more, than the report of a rifle shot fired in the defense of Freedom.

Offline Omnivore

  • Ultimate Forum Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 2449
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2015, 07:46:23 PM »
Quote
I don't understand what you mean by locking the cylinder. Does that refer to no barrel/cylinder gap, wherein the barrel forcing cone impinges upon the cylinder rotation?

Yes.  On an Uberti Colt, you're actually adjusting the cylinder gap depending on how for the wedge is pushed in.  Some people like it that way because they don't need a tool to tap the wedge out - just give it a shove and it's out.  Sure it's handy, but it also means your wedge can, and almost certainly will (mine do) work out as you shoot, altering the geometry of the gun as you go.  I prefer to have the arbor bottom put hard inside the barrel, and at that point I like about 0.003" cylinder gap.  That is achieved on an Uberti by adjusting the thickness of a shim.  Then the wedge can be tapped in, where it stays put until you're ready to tap it out for cleaning.  Some keep them stock and use the easy-out "feature" to make quick cylinder changes in the field.  I figure that if you want to do cylinder swaps you get a Remington.

Quote
My Pietta (new from Cabela's 2014 [CM], not Uberti) 1851 has no such step.

I'm not sure what you thought I meant.  The step is inside the wedge slot in the arbor.  It doesn't effect the fit of the arbor into the barrel, but it means that the muzzle side of the wedge is resting against a VERY thin "shelf" in the front of the slot, rather than engaging with its full thickness.  Once I file out the little glitch inside the slot, the wedge will be too narrow to do its job and will need replaced, probably with a custom-made one.  See the two photos.  I that peening of the wedge can happen with a little pocket 36, it'll happen big time on an Army gun.

Quote
My Pietta wood/metal fit is similarly poor (why can't those folks get it right?)

They could, no doubt, if they thought that enough people would pay the thousand, to three thousand dollars it would cost to deliver a flawless gun.

Quote
...observed some peening on the cylinder slots due to a "fat" bolt.

From what I've been reading, that seems to be a Pietta thing, or at least it it was for a while.  My '51 44 had it too.  My three Uberti's seem to be OK in that department.  I have a new a pietta '60 Army coming, so we'll see how it is.

If you haven't read them, try to find the articles "Tuning the Pietta" parts one, two and three.  They're several years old and on some other site, but any owner of any open top Colt would get something out of it.  That's where a lot of my early understanding came from, after I got my first C&B gun, but there's good stuff in there for anyone.  Fun stuff.  Belliveau has some great stuff on his YouTube channel also, as does the Hungarian shooter and historian who goes by the handle, capandball (I won't even try to spell his name).
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Omnivore

  • Ultimate Forum Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 2449
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2015, 07:55:30 PM »
Here's a better close-up showing the wedge slot in the arbor.  See the extra little "shelf" in there?  Someone screwed up there.  Probably after drinking more than his one bottle allotment of Lambrusco for lunch on a Friday.   :P
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Dellbert

  • Ultimate Forum Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 3957
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2015, 01:09:34 AM »
The one I bought came from the LGS and the ones (Uberti's) he has are new but he's had them for a few years. It's the five shot w/5" rd bbl. and put together just fine. I tried three different kind of caps on the nipples and they fired like their suppose to. Rolled the gun to the right a little and the spent caps fell right out. Never have fired it with powder yet, had it up for sale a while back nobody wanted it so glad I kept it now. With the way everyone is talking about the new Uberti's keeps me from wanting to order one just to send it back. It's a pain sometime to have that hook in your mouth. (5&
If it's not broke don't try fixin it.

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2015, 03:16:50 AM »
  Omnivore wrote,"On an Uberti Colt, you're actually adjusting the cylinder gap depending on how for the wedge is pushed in.  Some people like it that way because they don't need a tool to tap the wedge out - just give it a shove and it's out.  Sure it's handy, but it also means your wedge can, and almost certainly will (mine do) work out as you shoot, altering the geometry of the gun as you go.  I prefer to have the arbor bottom put hard inside the barrel, and at that point I like about 0.003" cylinder gap.  That is achieved on an Uberti by adjusting the thickness of a shim.  Then the wedge can be tapped in, where it stays put until you're ready to tap it out for cleaning."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   I too want the arbor to butt hard against the bottom of the hole in the barrel. When you say barrel gap is controlled by adjusting a shim, I assume you mean adding a spacer to the tip of the arbor. On my 1860 Uberti I found that a spacer of about .100" thickness was correct. Furthermore I found that the head of an 8-32 binder type screw filled this role perfectly plus it allowed me to fine tune by merely turning it out about 40 degrees. Once I get the adjustment finalized I will apply Loctite to the threads to hold the screw in place.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Omnivore wrote,"The step is inside the wedge slot in the arbor.  It doesn't effect the fit of the arbor into the barrel, but it means that the muzzle side of the wedge is resting against a VERY thin "shelf" in the front of the slot, rather than engaging with its full thickness.  Once I file out the little glitch inside the slot, the wedge will be too narrow to do its job and will need replaced, probably with a custom-made one.  See the two photos.  I that peening of the wedge can happen with a little pocket 36, it'll happen big time on an Army gun."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Fortunately I don't have steps in the arbor slot of my gun but the wedge is too narrow to draw the barrel and frame together tightly. As you mentioned, the correct way to fix this would be to make a new wider wedge. In my case I figured as long as I've already got an 8-32 hole tapped into the arbor, I might as well try running the tip of my "shim" screw into the slot instead of going to the trouble of making up a new wedge. If this scheme doesn't work I haven't lost much time and I'll just proceed to making the new wedge. I'm hoping the tip of the screw won't get pounded out because I have machined it square and the recoil of these guns is more of a push than a sharp slam.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline ssb73q

  • Ultimate Forum Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 3438
  • Gunsmoke junkie
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2015, 04:59:23 AM »
Hi, I think that the short arbor in the Uberti Colts is a leftover from original Colt production methods. Back then, there was no CNC machining, every revolver was individually hand fitted. The barrel wedge and short arbor allowed some easy barrel/cylinder gap adjustment.

Pietta now does CNC machining where every part is an exact and perfect duplicate of every other revolver in a production run. You can take a new Pietta and no matter how hard you bang in the wedge of their Colts, the barrel gap stays within 0.001". In practice only finger pressure is required to firmly seat or remove the Pietta Colt barrel wedge. I have never shot a Pietta Colt where the barrel wedge would loosen when using only finger pressure to seat the wedge.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline PaleHawkDown

  • Forum Legend
  • ******
  • Posts: 1145
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2015, 04:03:15 PM »
Hi, I think that the short arbor in the Uberti Colts is a leftover from original Colt production methods. Back then, there was no CNC machining, every revolver was individually hand fitted. The barrel wedge and short arbor allowed some easy barrel/cylinder gap adjustment.

Pietta now does CNC machining where every part is an exact and perfect duplicate of every other revolver in a production run. You can take a new Pietta and no matter how hard you bang in the wedge of their Colts, the barrel gap stays within 0.001". In practice only finger pressure is required to firmly seat or remove the Pietta Colt barrel wedge. I have never shot a Pietta Colt where the barrel wedge would loosen when using only finger pressure to seat the wedge.

Regards,
Richard

I'll amend this by saying pietas produced after the 2012-2013 changeover are pretty much perfect dimensionally. We had a heck of a time with dimensions on the 1851s and 1860s before then. Howell (and by extension Taylors) machine their cylinders to an exacting length, and for a while there it was a crapshoot whether these perfect parts would fit the imperfect guns.

Offline Pat/Rick

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: 1862 Police purchase
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2015, 07:27:01 PM »
Here's a better close-up showing the wedge slot in the arbor.  See the extra little "shelf" in there?  Someone screwed up there.  Probably after drinking more than his one bottle allotment of Lambrusco for lunch on a Friday.   :P

That comment brought back some memories!  '74-76 I was stationed in Vicenza, Italy with the 1-509th Airborne, our barracks were being remodelled at the time and the Italian workers carried their coveralls, tools, and lunches in large leather brief cases. Usually there was at least one, sometimes two wine bottle necks poking out from the ends of the brief cases!  Lambrusco is a very common wine in N.Italy as is about any red wine, or vino roso. Grappa is also one of the common working man's drinks.
Nothing expresses Liberty more, than the report of a rifle shot fired in the defense of Freedom.