Author Topic: Powder Experiment  (Read 38481 times)

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Offline ssb73q

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2013, 06:29:43 PM »
Yes, i was really talking about true black, like the difference between goex and swiss. The substitutes are another story. Like T7, it shoots pretty clean, but the chrono results from 4 or 5 different people i have seen are all over the place in velocity and some people are saying that its because it has a low shelf life,same with pyrodex. Now those 30 grain pyrodex pellets, them things are HOT, way more so than 30 grains of loose powder.

Hi kituwa, other than the easy to ignite Black MZ, Pyrodex and Triple 7 can be problematic igniting. The manufacture of Pyrodex and Triple 7 has this note for flintlock users:

"Flintlock: To insure proper ignition in flintlock systems, 5 grains of FFFFG priming powder should be placed into the bore prior to loading the main charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex. Consult the loading data in this brochure to determine the proper charge for the caliber firearm used and the chosen projectile. The main powder charge should be reduced by 5 grains to compensate for the addition of the priming powder. While holding the firearm vertically, slowly pour the measured charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex into the barrel. Seat the projectile firmly against the powder. Make certain that there is no airspace between the powder and the projectile."

If you have read Johnnie's postings, you will see that Johnnie first puts ~10gr of black powder in a chamber and then follows it with a main charge of Pyrodex. While not a true duplex where powders are mixed, I call it Johnnies duplex load. He claims good success getting the Pyrodex to function properly. I think that moisture is the killer of most of the substitutes. One of Black MZ's claim to fame is that it is moisture insensitive, but there are a number of small packets of silica gel in the Black MZ bottle, go figure. Something I read about real black powder is that a small amount of moisture actually enhances burning and potentency. IMO while black powder is of course very old, the science is still out wanting.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline bigblue

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2013, 07:37:39 PM »
would the difference in velocities come from variation in rate of burn, or the gas created from the burn doesn't have the same volume? would a change in barrel length give a clue to the answer to the aforementioned question? I'm asking because I have no clue :-[

Offline Hawg

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2013, 08:01:01 PM »
I've used Pyrodex in all kinds of weather and I never had a problem with ignition or velocity. I use standard CCI caps unless its my P53 Enfield then I use RWS musket caps.
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2013, 10:19:41 PM »
I've used Pyrodex in all kinds of weather and I never had a problem with ignition or velocity. I use standard CCI caps unless its my P53 Enfield then I use RWS musket caps.

Hi Hawg, did you use a chronograph to measure the velocity?

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline Classanr

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2013, 10:45:24 PM »
... Something I read about real black powder is that a small amount of moisture actually enhances burning and potentency. IMO while black powder is of course very old, the science is still out wanting. Regards, Richard

Since it's all a matter of expansion of gasses, there will be a tradeoff between slower burn rate with some moisture content and the 1700 times expansion from wet to steam.  Some wet is "good".

Unfortunately, there is also a tendency in the pressure cooker for some of the free H released in the making of steam to react with the S in the BP and recombine with the freed O, yielding H2SO4.  IMO, the H2SO4 reacts with any petroleum product (as one would expect it to do) to make tar and sludge.  Some wet is "bad".

Thus the warning to use only animal or plant lubes and greases, which are more likely to produce a soap-like substance.

Picks yer poison (so to speak).

Classanr
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Offline Hawg

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2013, 04:21:11 AM »
I've used Pyrodex in all kinds of weather and I never had a problem with ignition or velocity. I use standard CCI caps unless its my P53 Enfield then I use RWS musket caps.

Hi Hawg, did you use a chronograph to measure the velocity?

Regards,
Richard

Nope, don't own one. A couple of hundered FPS one way or the other isn't going to make a hill of beans worth of difference. It will just make you say wow look at how great this stuff is. I've used Pyro for years. Recently bought some Swiss. As far as shooting the way I do there's not much difference. Swiss smells better.
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2013, 05:54:24 AM »
I've used Pyrodex in all kinds of weather and I never had a problem with ignition or velocity. I use standard CCI caps unless its my P53 Enfield then I use RWS musket caps.

Hi Hawg, did you use a chronograph to measure the velocity?

Regards,
Richard

Nope, don't own one. A couple of hundered FPS one way or the other isn't going to make a hill of beans worth of difference.

Hi Hawg, a couple of hundred fps one way or the other makes no difference? Really? Closely held beliefs are very difficult to revisit.  ;) ;)

Since projectile energy goes as velocity squared, it makes a huge difference in projectile performance.  You can test this for yourself the relationship with this easy to use energy calculator, see:
http://www.firearmexpertwitness.com/customguns/calcnrg.html

Even if you're not interested in performance like hunting or self protection, target accuracy depends on velocity uniformity, shot to shot.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2013, 06:10:14 AM »
... Something I read about real black powder is that a small amount of moisture actually enhances burning and potentency. IMO while black powder is of course very old, the science is still out wanting. Regards, Richard

Since it's all a matter of expansion of gasses, there will be a tradeoff between slower burn rate with some moisture content and the 1700 times expansion from wet to steam.  Some wet is "good".

Unfortunately, there is also a tendency in the pressure cooker for some of the free H released in the making of steam to react with the S in the BP and recombine with the freed O, yielding H2SO4.  IMO, the H2SO4 reacts with any petroleum product (as one would expect it to do) to make tar and sludge.  Some wet is "bad".

Thus the warning to use only animal or plant lubes and greases, which are more likely to produce a soap-like substance.

Picks yer poison (so to speak).

Classanr

Hi Classanr, the reference I saw said that some moisture increased black powder burn rate and why black powder plants with wet powder can still blow up. Doesn't hot potassium hydroxide with moisture turn any oil to soap?  (^h (^h

An interesting reference on black powder, see:
http://crescentok.com/staff/jaskew/TAH/projects/chemistry/HSchem.htm

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline kituwa

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2013, 08:23:54 AM »
The only problems i have had shooting Pyrodex or T7 is some hang fires and those were happening when i used a lubed over powder wad and the guns had been loaded for several weeks.Since i stopped doing that when i leave a gun loaded and now huse a grease cookie over the ball instead i havnt had hanfires anymore. I think the powder companies are more concerned with a profit and liabilities than making high performance powder. Also there seems to be efforts made to come up with substitutes that are not as corrosive as true black but mostly that is only short term. From what i read durring the CW they had a revolver powder that was pretty hot stuff. And a lot of the paper cartridges that were issued were a pretty bad ass with 28 to 30 grains and conicals like 215 to 250grs. Thats a lot to cram in a cylinder with a conical. It seems like maybe they wanted a load that would take out horses as much as shooting people. There is a farmer that has a field close to where i live that several guys use metal detectors on.I have seen some of their collections of finds and there were very few round balls and as many conical ball for revolver as they find for riffles.That tells me the revolvers were used a lot but it may be a lot of the riffle bullets just went farther and they were not finding them.Also most of the bullets are not deformed, you could almost load them up and shoot them again. Most of us now just want to blast cans,shoot some targets and have fun. Others like to get all we can out of them. I do the same thing with a cartridge gun,its just what tickles my gizzard. A stardard factory load in .45 colt kills a deer dead dead dead, but its much more fun to do it with a 300 gr bullet at 1100fps in a .45 colt. Even just shooting milk jugs full of water with my 58 Rem. is a lot more fun with 35grs of T7,lol. Pyrodex is shootin powder,not too expensive,easy to get, and goes bang, but real he man powders are T7,swiss, and sounds like the Old Eynsford. Some of the other subs are good rifle powder but not the easiest to make work in a revolver.

Offline Hawg

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2013, 07:30:04 PM »
I do hunt but I don't use pistols to do it. I couldn't care less about punching paper. I can tear up Coke cans at 25 yards all day with any of my pistols using Pyrodex. I can tear up five gallon buckets at 300 yards with my Enfield and Pyrodex. I can make head shots on deer at 65 yards offhand with my Hawken. Now you tell me why I should give a dead rats ass about any of this.
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

Offline kituwa

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2013, 08:06:06 PM »
Ummmm, because the dead rat is one i shot one handed with a remington pocket .31 at a quarter mile loaded with T7? He He He )L$

Offline Hawg

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2013, 04:05:46 AM »
Ummmm, because the dead rat is one i shot one handed with a remington pocket .31 at a quarter mile loaded with T7? He He He )L$

Dayuum you're good!  (k- I couldn't hit squat past 20 feet with my 31.
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2013, 06:18:12 AM »
Hi, a couple of days ago I sent the following email to Alliant Powder (Seller of Black MZ):

"Hi, I recently did some testing of black powder and equivalents. You can see the details at: http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php/topic,6410.0.html
 
I really like the minimal fouling of Black MZ, but I'm a bit concerned about the variability in velocity.
 
Is there anything that can be done to get Black MZ to not be so variable?"

There's no reply to date, but they have replied before when I asked questions.  (^h (^h (^h

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline kituwa

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2013, 11:49:22 AM »
Actually i cant hit squat, but i did make a nice hit on the cieling right above my computer desk with my .36 derringer. We live in a trailer so its kind of cool, at exactly 1:15 every day the sun lines up just right that it shines a beam of light on my desk reminding me that its time to fix a sammitch.

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Powder Experiment
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2013, 01:03:59 PM »
Actually i cant hit squat, but i did make a nice hit on the cieling right above my computer desk with my .36 derringer. We live in a trailer so its kind of cool, at exactly 1:15 every day the sun lines up just right that it shines a beam of light on my desk reminding me that its time to fix a sammitch.

Hi kituwa, see, I warned you about using Pyrodex.  )L$ (?^ ->i

Glad you are ok. I hope this is your first and last unintentional discharge.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!