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Author Topic: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!  (Read 626 times)

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Offline Cross Plains Drifter

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2019, 08:55:57 PM »
I'll stick with caps. They were good enough 150 years ago, they're good enough now. (T^

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Offline G Dog

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2019, 09:50:06 PM »
     ^^^    That!    ^^^

 ])M 


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Offline prof marvel

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2019, 01:58:07 AM »

Agreed Prof those cylinders are pure gun porn !

I bought some of those 209 nipples for the Ruger and a Pietta whilst I was in the Isles of Gloom for eight days too long. As soon as I can I'm going to test them and scribble the findings here.

Looking forward to it! I love learning about new  stuff.

Yhs
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Offline necessaryevil

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2019, 04:33:18 AM »
I don't know how the revolver 20's work but the 209 thingy for sidelocks required the thing to be unscrewed to remove the primer. That would double the loading time. CVA imported smokeless rifles for awhile until a few of them blew up.

You pop the cylinder out of the Ruger or the Remington replica and just push them out with any old 3mm punch.

Offline Hawg

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2019, 08:32:18 AM »
I don't know how the revolver 20's work but the 209 thingy for sidelocks required the thing to be unscrewed to remove the primer. That would double the loading time. CVA imported smokeless rifles for awhile until a few of them blew up.

You pop the cylinder out of the Ruger or the Remington replica and just push them out with any old 3mm punch.

I'll stick with caps.
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Offline Racing

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2019, 12:58:15 PM »
Well.
Ordered these a tad to long and set end shake myself.
Fit n finish is beyond argument,it´s just downright marvelous. Will get back to you guys on what we find...cause this is happening,on more than one count.
DVC - 2018

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2019, 02:08:11 PM »
Racing; those certainly do look nice.  How is the chamber to bore alignment?
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2019, 02:40:55 PM »
As for trying to push a conical bullet to over 1100 fps or so?  I've gotten 1000 fps from Olde Eynsford powder (real black), 30 grains, and a 240 grain bullet out of an 8" bbl.  That's the highest velocity of a string (average was rather less).  Still and all, 1000 fps and a 240, comes to 533 ft lbs muzzle energy.  If you can get an average that high that's pretty good for just about anything you'd want a pistol to do.  No doubt you could push it farther, with some of the substitute powders, and still not be in the smokeless relm.

As for the bullet diameter; there's no reason to have it more than about a thousandth ot two inch over chamber diameter.  I size mine to chamber diameter when using paper carts, and even one or two under will still work fine.  Three to five over is doing nothing whatsoever for you but making the loading process a bit harder.

With round balls of course it's a totally different story; you want more extra diameter so as the ball ends up with a drive band.  There I'd say use the largest ball that's still reasonably easy to load.

But if increasing the gun's power and/or range is the goal, round ball isn't the way to go.  Heavier conicals will derive more energy out of the powder and depending on the load they may even go faster besides, plus they lose less energy in flight.

I just wouldn't push an original 1860s frame and barrel to find its mechanical limits, so I'd say your new cylinders will handle far more pressure and shock than the old parts.

Then of course there is the issue of hammer blow-back.  Eving the big and heavy hammer on the Colt Walker repro revolver, using heavy bullets and full charges of powder, and also at the other end of the spectrum the Colt 1962 Police repros having very a light hammer, hammer blow-back becomes an issue.  It can batter your lockwork among other things.  Therefore with high pressure loads you want the minimum diameter flash hole for the nipples which still allows reliable ignition.  Adding mass to the hammer may be another way to deal with the issue.  Additional mainspring tension will do little besides making cocking more difficult and increasing trigger pull.  It's more about moment of inertia verses the backward impulse from the nipple.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Racing

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2019, 06:45:40 AM »
Ok.
So a sorts of partial result is in at least.

Range yesterday and started by popping off a few 228 grain HP over 30 grains of true black,and that simply worked like a charm.
Upped to 40..no issues (yes,deep chambers)

So. Batting time,for real. Out the 270 Keith ones came which ment loading off gun. No worries. So wiggled along doing that and the gun behaved as intended.

Then out the T7 came..and at 40 grains volume of that stuff and a 270 slug..now we were seeing some respectable recoil out of one of these old guns. That much is for sure.
3 cylinders later i realized that the last two shots fired by a fellow club member,something went wrong.
Blockback was still very very reasonable/manageable. Cap remains..nope,but nothing along the lines where "hammer bump" was of any appreciable amount on the other hand.
Nipples on this one are basically new TOW ones with an approx 0,6mm through hole.

Indeed. A very minute crack at the forcing cone. Easy enough to repair. The real Q though is if this was the limit or if Ulf for some reason came to index the thing not quite in battery?
No idea boys.
Crack SEEMS to have started at the barrel edge. I´ll get back to you on that though.

The barrel in case has had an 11deg forcing cone cut and a 45deg "release" angle too to "break all corners". IOW the barrel in case SHOULD have catered even to a slight misaligement,if all else was in order.
As i got back to the shop i took the barrel off,of course,and nothing as far as frame or threads. Indeed,in spite of the minute crack the barrel was easy to get off of there,indicating the same.

Mind you,please take the meplat of the bullet in here. The 270 is a SWC design,and a rather hefty one at that.

Sry to say i didn´t bring my chrono,which in hindsight would have been a smart move. There´ll be other attempts though..so all in due time.

From a bullet and powder weight POW though this is no slouch setup anymore. Per above no IDEA of muzzle energy but the damn thing kicked,i´ll tell you that much.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 06:50:16 AM by Racing »
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Offline Hawg

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2019, 07:47:03 AM »
Personally I think you're pushing it.
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

Offline Len

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2019, 12:07:08 PM »
I think I might be siding with Hawg. Pushing the envelope is an adventure all right, but there might be side effects. When stuff starts cracking, that's a sign. I'm just letting my thoughts run free here: personal safety issues, yours and mine situation within this country's gun laws, politicians looking for scape goats for their personal crusades, ... an endless line of maybe negative repercussions ???

Offline prof marvel

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2019, 12:15:52 AM »
-- Cap remains..nope

 --  A very minute crack at the forcing cone. Easy enough to repair. The real Q though is if this was the limit or if Ulf for some reason came to index the thing not quite in battery?
No idea boys.
Crack SEEMS to have started at the barrel edge. I´ll get back to you on that though.


Ah My Good Racing -
 

>>T7 came..and at 40 grains volume of that stuff and a 270 slug.
>> Cap remains..nope

Does that mean .... the caps are gone ?

IMHO you are experiencing overpressure.

>> A very minute crack at the forcing cone.

This is the classic symptom that occured in the S&W Model 19.357 Mag: forcing cone crack, occurring after several HUNDREDS of high pressure .357 Mag loads.

Yes, you have just exceeded design &  materials limits, and in only 18 rounds.
good thing you had a strong modern cylinder.

time to back down the load.
I would suggest not exceeding a conical as recommended by Omni - larger bearing surfaces can cause increasing pressure rapidly. 
when I once used a 255 gr .45 Colt bullet, pressure and recoil jumped dramatically

yhs
prof marvel
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 12:21:39 AM by prof marvel »
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Offline necessaryevil

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2019, 02:58:28 AM »
I must say I am in agreement with all the above comments.

As I said even with a great piece of kit like those cylinders I personally wouldn't push the envelope.

You have done an experiment and I think you have found the limit. As the good Professor said the crack in the forcing cone is a red flag.

Repair it and if it were mine I wouldn't exceed 30 grains of T7 with a 200 or 225 grain conical, which is more than enough to "get the job done" in perfect safety.

Offline Racing

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2019, 04:46:36 AM »
I hear you all.

Barrel leading was rather severe too.

As for limits,we haven´t even started yet  ;). Just be patient...

Per always the chamber pressure is one thing. That the fresh cylinder will take it,i have no doubt what so ever in my mind why the forcing cone crack indeed IS a give away.

I´ve shot volume equiv 38 grains of T7 with a 145g roundball until my sox has fallen off previously out of original guns with no ills what so ever- for comparsion.
In other words it´s a matter of bullet weight,very much so,too of course. There´s no real good in a loud boom though. No point at all,why a severely heavier bullet of course makes use of a larger powder charge. Of course it does.

Well. Next up is the blueing of a crapload of parts,incl pts on this gun. We´ll take it from there...
DVC - 2018

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Alright. Let´s stir *hit up!
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2019, 01:14:16 PM »
From a Pietta 8" Remington, using 30 grains of Olde E and my Accurate Molds 45-225L bullet (weight is closer to 223 to 224 grains average), I got an average velocity of 864.4 fps, for 372 ft lbs.  Increasing the charge to 35 grains netted an average velocity of 958.8 fps for 457 ft lbs.

45 grains Olde E. in the Walker with the same bullet yielded average vel of 1037 fps for 535 ft poinds KE.

Increasing the bullet weight to 240 grains will yield a lot more kinetic energy, which means powder burn rate (and pressure) is increasing substantially.  270 grains is just over the top.

I see no sense in wanting to test an antique gun to failure.  We all know they'll fail when you approach those kinds of over-the-top loads, for we've seen it here in the repro guns.

The cylinder is usually the weakest point, sure, but a super duper new cylinder alone only shifts the weakest point to someplace else.

I'm sure you've seen that in the racing business as well; some guy supercharges his stock mobile, and then twists off a drive line, blows up a differential, burns up a clutch , or etc.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)