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Author Topic: 45 sabot, 40 cal bullet  (Read 1622 times)

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Offline Omnivore

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Re: 45 sabot, 40 cal bullet
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2018, 12:50:17 AM »
Here are some 35 grain "powder bags" with lube cookies for tomorrow's chrono testing.  I'll bring 30 grain and 20 grain versions too, and test them all from the Walker.  I figure the Walker's 9" barrel won't be all that different from an 8" Army.  It'll give us the general idea anyway.

I'll bring the 18" Remington carbine too, and see what velocities come from that, with 20 grains, no lube (there won't be room for a cookie), and the sabot/40 cal. 180 gr. XTP combo.

That'll be 24 shots over the sensors. Six each of 20, 30 and 35 grain charges from the Walker, and six lubeless 20 grain charges from the carbine.  Not enough to get meaningful standard deviations, but it'll give us an inkling of what these loads are doing, for them as want to try this on their own.

If I get the hankerin' I suppose some sabots with the 155 grain XTP might get fired.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Omnivore

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Re: 45 sabot, 40 cal bullet
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2018, 02:29:06 PM »
I'm all ready to load out and go set up the chronograph, but now we have 25 to 30 MPH winds, so it's a no-go.  It was calm as can be early this morning too...  It'll be several more days at least.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline rodwha

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Re: 45 sabot, 40 cal bullet
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2018, 06:53:33 PM »
Very interesting for sure.

If it ever comes to a point where I can’t use full sized projectiles I suppose this is what work on. I’ve wondered if cloth patched would work (from a muzzleloader but same principle).
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: 45 sabot, 40 cal bullet
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2018, 04:30:28 PM »
Rodwha; as I said before, Hickock45 (on YouTube) has used patched round ball in a Remington New Model Army and claimed it worked OK.  Others have done similar.

As for patching a conical, the issue would be that the cloth patch will tend to want to fold over on itself, getting randomly located folds between bullet and chamber.  Somewhere on this forum I believe it was mentioned that a certain bullet design, mimicking the "patch fold accommodation" properties of a round ball, has actually been done.  The bullet would look roughly something like my crude drawing in the attached image below, in concept.

Also, any "conical" bullet having a very short, sub caliber rear drive band, AND a very long lube groove in front of it, might work the same way.  To wit (conceptually speaking, and roughly so of course);
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=50-240A-D.png

But why?  If such a stunt requires a custom bullet, then get a mold in full caliber and save the fuss of patching.  Otherwise, I suppose; try cloth patching a more conventional, sub caliber conical bullet and report back.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline drobs

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Re: 45 sabot, 40 cal bullet
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2018, 06:34:18 AM »
I'm curious what your group size would look like at a closer target - say 21ft.


Next time I'm home I'll try some cloth patched 9mm. Could be fun...
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: 45 sabot, 40 cal bullet
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2018, 11:16:45 AM »
Drobs; just do the numbers.  Assuming an 8 inch group at 90 feet (30 yards), that's 8 / 90 equals the dispersion in inches, per foot of distance.  Now multiply that by 21, and you'll have the largest the same group would have been at 21 feet;

8 / 90 x 21 = 1.87 inches.

I say that's the "largest" the same group would have been at 21 feet because there are different kinds of dispersion and the numbers above assume the simplest.

Seven yards or 30 yards; it doesn't matter.  It's all the same thing.  Think in terms of dispersion and not group size at any particular distance.  So a two inch group at seven yards is a bit over 8.5", minimum, at 30 yards, etc.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Omnivore

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Re: 45 sabot, 40 cal bullet
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2018, 04:55:24 PM »
Finally I got out with the chronoghaph today.  29 degrees F, and few inches of snow, but it was calm and overcast; perfect for taking chrono readings.

From the Uberti Walker, nine inch barrel, six shots each, all with the Hornady 180 grain 10mm XTP hollowpoint in a 45 caliber sabot, all using Olde Eynsford 3F powder and a lube cookie;

20 grains; (feet per second);
Hi.  856.8
Lo.  826.0
ES.    30.8
Average. 840.8 (282.5 ft lbs)

30 grains;
Hi.   1013
Lo.   983.5
ES.    30.5
Average. 993.6. (394.5 ft lbs)

35 grains;
Hi.   1042
Lo.   1013
ES.      29
Average. 1028 (422 ft lbs)

Next is the 18" Uberti Remington carbine.  First up is 20 grains O.E, with the same 180 grain XTP and sabot, no lube (for there is no room for a cookie);
Hi.   942.8
Lo.   926.6
ES.    16.2
Average. 934.4. (349 ft lbs)

18" carbine again, loaded this time with a volume of T7 powder equal to the volume of 23.5 grains of black powder, the lighter 155 grain 10mm XTP bullet, same sabot.  This is almost a full load (the T7 powder is more compressible than real black);
Hi.   1180
Lo.   1127
ES.     53
Average. 1149 (454 ft lbs)

Summary;

Sabots are a perfectly viable option if you want to go through the extra effort, and can accept the reduced powder capacity.

Predictably, the 30 grain charge in the Walker easily achieved 40 S&W energy levels.

The 18" carbine with a lighter bullet and a lesser volume of T7 powder gave the best energy, additional barrel length being the main factor there.

As is typical, the lighter bullet also printed a bit lower on the target, but it also printed a bit more to the right.  This is why I like adjustable sights.  You can zero for your preferred load, and that's a benefit even if you never changer loads or ever adjust the sight again.

Shown are the two groups from the carbine, the generally higher group being the 180 grain XTP and the lower one being the 155 grain XTP.  Distance was about 21 yards, or 63 feet, standing position, unsupported.  A few fliers, but then I wasn't trying for best accuracy.  Mainly this was about getting the shots over the chrono.  Accuracy potential with the sabots, I believe, is as good as most other projectiles for these guns.

Loading the sabots, on the other hand, is more of a chore.  The Uberti Remington is ready to go from the factory, although I still needed a "push stick" to get the rounds inserted far enough to rotate them under the loading lever.  As I've said already the Walker needed substantial modification to load most any conical, and if you wanted to shoot sabots regularly you'd want to open up the loading port even more.

I don't expect I'll use any more sabots any time soon, mainly because they're slower to load and because lead bullets are both cheaper and easier to use, AND in a service caliber handgun a lead HP can perform nearly as well as modern jacked HP in most cases.  If it came down to an actual need, for some reason, we know that sabots can work well enough.  Sabots also leave more trash to pick up after a shooting session...
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 05:34:06 PM by Omnivore »
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)