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Author Topic: Cylinder to barrel clerance?  (Read 466 times)

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Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Cylinder to barrel clerance?
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2018, 09:59:46 PM »
 Yep, you know the old saying - "just because it's on the internet .  .  .  .  ".

    It's always good to know the correct names of things and  " the bolt cylinder stop" is better known as a "hammer cam".  To set timing on a S.A. revolver, you don't file on the cam.  That being said, you can contour a cam surface to make it easier for the BOLT ARM to transition from the hammer surface to the cam surface for less resistance as it continues towards bolt arm reset.  You can also reduce the height of the cam which will allow less flexing of the bolt arm which obviously extends the life of the arm.  As long as the arm is being discussed here, it can be thined rather significantly to allow extreme flexibility yet retain plenty of strength in the vertical plane.

   But, this should be more about timing.  Timing is CHOOSING when the left bolt arm FALLS OFF the front of the hammer cam. Since the cam is being drawn to the rear as the cycle continues, it comes to a point where it won't support the bolt arm. As stated above, the arm should not slide off the side of the cam (this can be observed as one cycles the action with the trigger guard removed or looking down the hammer slot /cylinder removed).  The sliding arm will grind the edge of the cam and likewise, the cam will eat away at the arm and the parts will eventually fail. The design is for the arm to fall OFF the front of the cam which is pretty much a  "no wear" activity (excellent mechanical engineering! ).

  To have the arm fall off at a specific time in the cycle, the left arm is dressed  (controlled removal of material) until that point is reached. The most rear surface of the bolt arm (the vertical area that actually rides the cam) can be dressed to a point that stops lowering the bolt head (the part that fits in the cyl locking notches) deeper into the frame. The bolt head need not retract any further than the water line  of the top of the frame (this will reduce felt "stacking" from the bolt spring while cycling the action) which will extend the life of the bolt spring (which needn't be more than 3 lbs. tension).
  The top edge of the most rear of the  bolt arm can be  reduced  to facilitate the dropping off point. Ultimately it is the corner or edge of the two surfaces that  make the "dropping point". The bolt should drop in the approach leading to the locking notch.  About a bolt and a half  in front of the notch if an approach isn't present.

  All of this is done after the hand length has been established. The hand should have the bolt locking the cyl and the trigger sear engaging the full cock notch simultaneously. Adjusting the hand length after setting the time  will " move" the timing.


Mike
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« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 10:34:11 PM by 45 Dragoon »

Offline Racing

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Re: Cylinder to barrel clerance?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2018, 03:11:51 AM »
Very well explained Mike.

For the TS. A shade tree trick. Remove what´s there to remove on the gun. Now install the hammer and bolt with it´s screw to the right OUTSIDE of the frame.
Be aware that to work the parts you´ll have to push them towards their screw heads. In this manner you have a clear view of what´s going on within the revolver as you work the action.

Work the hammer and study how the bolt follows. This will explain it all very simply to you.
DVC - 2018

Offline KRhat

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Re: Cylinder to barrel clerance?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2018, 07:50:19 AM »
That's where I am, tryin to find any good information about tuning and timing. But for now it's trial and error. I think if I really screw up, I can still disassemble the gun and start all over again.  For me, knowing how to do it is easy, but knowing what to do is the real rocket surgery. It certainly won't get to the range untill I'm confident it's right. That video is probably right in suggesting that there be several extra parts on hand.

 Sorry, I just saw the last couple of posts
 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 07:54:49 AM by KRhat »

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Cylinder to barrel clerance?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2018, 08:12:31 AM »
Thanks Racing. I may can get some pictures up here this afternoon.

Mike
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Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: Cylinder to barrel clerance?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2018, 11:22:46 AM »
That's where I am, tryin to find any good information about tuning and timing.


A good book for repairs and tuning single action revolvers is "The Colt Single Action Revolvers, A Shop Manual" by Jerry Kuhnhausen. Although the lock work geometry and some features of the Remington 1858 is a little different then the Colt SAA, the two are very similar and all the basics are the same.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline Capnball

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Re: Cylinder to barrel clerance?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2018, 05:13:45 AM »
KRhat, I recently purchased an Uberti Navy from DGW, and it is one of my favorites. Accurate and I have not had any problem with it. I too have watched that ytube video on timing, and when the guy recommended getting extra parts to ruin, well that convinced me he does not know enough about it to be doing an instructional video. I bought a new Uberti with a timing issue, and sent it to a Goon for correction. I don't want or need a headache trying to make a drivetrain of parts synchronize.

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Cylinder to barrel clerance?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2018, 02:53:23 PM »
Hammer, hammer cam, hand, bolt, cylinder, trigger.  Six parts (five if you count the hammer and hammer cam as one, which in some cases they actually are), plus a few springs and the axle screws.  It ain't complicated.

I will admit to having not understood, for quite a while after getting my first single action, exactly how the parts all work together.  The problem is that it's extremely difficult to SEE how they interact.  It was made a bit more difficult in that I'd been given dubious "information" at the outset.

If you don't "get it" 100%, don't feel bad.  I didn't get it for quite a while, and my profession for 30 years was working on far more complex musical instrument mechanisms for professionals (but on those, you can SEE what's happening).  I'd say ship it to 45 Dragoon and have him sweeten the action for you.

Ask for a hardened steel hammer cam too-- That made a big improvement in the feel (and the longevity) of the action when I did a couple of mine that way.  I used drill rod, by selecting the appropriate diameter from a drill index and sacrificing a tiny bit of length from one drill shank, then turned it to spec for press fit into the hammer, using a small lathe, hardened the new part by heating to its transition point and quenching, then polished it with 400 and/or 600 grit carbide paper, then pressed it in.

Pro Tip: high speed steel drill bits are hardened only in the fluted area.  The shanks, where they fit into the chuck, are soft and easy to work.  Since a lot of people have various drill bit indexes already handy, they therefore also have a handy selection of quality, workable, readily hardened steel in a wide spectrum of diameters, all ready to go for making small, precision parts.  You can order drill rod in all those diameters as well, of course, but if you do any shop work, the point is you already have some for the odd job or the quick fix, and that one drill bit you robbed steel from still works the same after being cut a quarter inch or so shorter.

I don't know about their Remingtons, but my Uberti Colts have the hammer cam machined as one piece with the hammer.  It's pretty soft steel too, and one cam got substantially "rubbed out" by the harder bolt arm, throwing out the timing, very soon after I got the gun new.  My Pietta Remingtons came with pressed-in hammer cams, but they too are softer than they should be, and I've worn one of those out after several hundreds of rounds fired and a lot of dry firing.  It doesn't help that they use gawd-awful heavy bolt springs, which over-stress the hammer cam, make for heavier cocking action, ding the cylinder, and lead to bolt spring breakage.

45 D (the Goon) can fix ALL of that for you, almost as easy as taking out the trash, 'cause he does this stuff all the time.  All he needs in return is a small briefcase full of untraceable U.S. Federal Reserve Notes, preferably in small denominations, left at a drop point to be determined...   :P
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Cylinder to barrel clerance?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2018, 04:42:57 PM »
Ha!!!!  Thanks Omni!!!  (Been takin out the trash all day lol!!!)

   Learning how the action actually works will help ones ability to figure out what any problem may be. Also, spring weights play into not only the "feel", but the life of the various parts. Just working the action with the trigger guard off gives you ability to watch the whole thing throughout the cycle. I guess the hardest thing is a total understanding of the hand and it's interaction with a revolving ratchet (since you can't see it  as Omnivore posted).
  Once you " get it", even if you can't fix it, you'll be able to tell one who can what the problem most likely is or is related to.

 As far as hammer cams go, they will not be needed in the near future. I'll be grinding them off in favor of my "camless" setup which will allow a solid bolt which means a bolt that won't break!!  It will be the final step in my search for the "perfect setup for our favorite revolvers!! Coil springs, torsion springs and solid 3D action parts gives you an " unbreakable " revolver!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
   

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: Cylinder to barrel clerance?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2018, 07:35:47 PM »

 As far as hammer cams go, they will not be needed in the near future. I'll be grinding them off in favor of my "camless" setup which will allow a solid bolt which means a bolt that won't break!!  It will be the final step in my search for the "perfect setup for our favorite revolvers!! Coil springs, torsion springs and solid 3D action parts gives you an " unbreakable " revolver!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
 
I'll sure be interested in seeing that Mike.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline KRhat

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Re: Cylinder to barrel clerance?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2018, 08:33:02 PM »
Don't know if this will help, but I had to made a gig to help me figure it out. (The hammer cam on this one is already screwed up, by me)








Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Cylinder to barrel clerance?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2018, 09:29:34 PM »
FRhat, good job!

Yolla, it's pretty slick!! 

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Cylinder to barrel clerance?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2018, 11:38:50 AM »
45 D; There are many ways to skin a cat.  Is this "solid bolt" articulated, per chance, or does it have a plunger in it?  Or is the pin on the hammer articulated, or do you have some totally different idea that I'm not seeing?

This I do wish to see.

In musical instrument mechanisms, some have recently employed magnets, even, rather than springs and mechanical linkages in some instances, though I dislike magnets which tend to collect shavings and junk.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)