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Author Topic: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints  (Read 619 times)

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Offline Capnball

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2018, 06:42:51 AM »
Try a maximum charge of powder. in the 8" bbl. They look like they are trying to open with 30gr., another 10gr would probably make them like starfish.  (T^

Offline drobs

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2018, 08:24:07 AM »
Try a maximum charge of powder. in the 8" bbl. They look like they are trying to open with 30gr., another 10gr would probably make them like starfish.  (T^

+1

I can cram 40gr in my Pietta 58 - 44 and .454 round ball (no wad).


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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2018, 12:05:16 PM »
Yes, the bullet could be pushed faster by eliminating the lube cookie and cramming in more powder.  Or I could use a larger HP cavity, or cut the serrations out farther toward the outside of the bullet, or use the bullet as-is in a Dragoon or Walker revolver with both more powder and the cookie.

An expanding bullet, at any speed, is designed to trade away penetration for shock and trauma.  I have no doublt I could get these bullets to expand nicely at characteristic, moderate velocities from any of these guns, at least in water bottles (i.e. without having to use the absolute maximum possible powder charge).  It all depends on the intended use.

You take away the lube cookie and now you're limiting the number of shots that can be fired without fouling issues.  That may very well be desirable, for example against a varmint in which very few shots would be required.  Use a low fouling substitute powder and now it's hardly any issue.

The 18" Uberti Revolving carbine is pushing the 140 grain swaged bullet to an average of 1296 fps, for 529 ft lbs, which I'd posted elsewhere.  At a wild guess the 8" Army with 30 grains Olde Eynsford is pushing it to the mid 900s?  I've just never chronographed such a light bullet in the 8" with that load, but others, such as Mike Cumpston, have done so with round ball and Swiss powder.  My guess is that the swaged bullet, with greater bearing surface than a round ball of the same weight, will go just a bit faster than the round ball.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline drobs

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2018, 08:36:50 PM »
I think I've posted the video of MannyCa shooting patched 36 round ball out of his 44 cal 58 before. Here it is: 


This video opens up a lot of possibilities. If patched 36 will work in a 44, how about patched 38 or 357 jacketed hollow points?
Making your own hollow points is cool, I'd like to try some off the shelf bullets and see how they perform.
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2018, 01:13:36 PM »
Hickock45 did a video on the '58 Remington NMA some years ago, in which he'd mistakenly brought .440" ball, I think it was (normally used as a patched ball in 45 caliber muzzle loaders, but too small for the revolver).  Rather than postponing the video shoot until he'd gotten the correct size, he patched the .440" ball, and it seemed to work fine.

Others have experimented with sabots and undersized conical bullets in these guns.  I haven't tried a 40 caliber bullet in a 45 sabot.  It would probably work, though the question of "why" remains.

"Just because" is an answer that I'll accept, if it's given straight up.  It's one of the reasons why I'm experimenting with hollowpoints.  "Just for fun" works too.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Gillamax77

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2018, 06:15:50 PM »
10-4 Lyle and swage on.
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Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2018, 06:17:24 PM »
 Omnivore,
                  Here's a good "why" for using 40 cal bullets with sabots in a percussion revolver. Next year in California only copper bullets will be allowed for hunting, even for black powder guns. So if I want to take my 1858 as a back up I'll have to start playing around with this.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline drobs

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2018, 06:48:44 PM »
Hickock45 did a video on the '58 Remington NMA some years ago, in which he'd mistakenly brought .440" ball, I think it was (normally used as a patched ball in 45 caliber muzzle loaders, but too small for the revolver).  Rather than postponing the video shoot until he'd gotten the correct size, he patched the .440" ball, and it seemed to work fine.

Others have experimented with sabots and undersized conical bullets in these guns.  I haven't tried a 40 caliber bullet in a 45 sabot.  It would probably work, though the question of "why" remains.

"Just because" is an answer that I'll accept, if it's given straight up.  It's one of the reasons why I'm experimenting with hollowpoints.  "Just for fun" works too.

My why is - Experimentation is 1/2 the fun (for me) of shooting BP.
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Offline rodwha

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2018, 08:44:31 PM »
Some of us, I suppose, just can’t help but wonder about things and have even contemplated double patching a .457” ball in their .50 cal, a sabot in a sabot to use a .40 cal in the .50, along with sabots in a revolver.

And then there’s what can I melt and cast that isn’t lead if they decide country wide that lead isn’t acceptable (I don’t like to think much about this one).
"Were I to leave where else would I go? Your words of life and of truth You hold." - Third Day

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2018, 12:20:42 PM »
Quote
  Here's a good "why" for using 40 cal bullets with sabots in a percussion revolver. Next year in California only copper bullets will be allowed for hunting, even for black powder guns. So if I want to take my 1858 as a back up I'll have to start playing around with this.

I assume it's a lead restriction and not a specific mandate for copper?  Tungsten polymer for example, or bismuth; those'd be "allowed" too, right?  If you're going to use a sabot, then a harder substance like bismuth or Hevi-shot would be acceptable.

I guess we'd best start looking into ways to substitute lead casting and swaging for some of these other materials and processes too, while we have time to play around.

The Yankee Martial has an interesting take on this issue.  In short his point is; yes, develop these other technologies, use them and make them main-stream.  Then, those who cast and use lead will be such a small percentage of total shooting that they could be left entirely unmolested-- There'd be no statistically significant argument in favor of messing with them.

His only problem is that he's being logical and intelligent, whereas these battles have nothing whatsoever to do with logic other than the "logic" of growing the Romish state and the intelligence required to so.

We give the Marxists an inch, they'll take a mile and then spit on us, and make no mistake about it; this has nothing to do with the environment (that's just a convenient leverage point at the moment) and everything to do with chilling the exercise of the RKBA.  Once they get enough power, all environmental "concerns" and discussions will disappear.  We've seen that play out in other countries so there's more than enough president to understand what's happening here and now.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2018, 11:46:37 AM »
Quote
  Here's a good "why" for using 40 cal bullets with sabots in a percussion revolver. Next year in California only copper bullets will be allowed for hunting, even for black powder guns. So if I want to take my 1858 as a back up I'll have to start playing around with this.

I assume it's a lead restriction and not a specific mandate for copper?  Tungsten polymer for example, or bismuth; those'd be "allowed" too, right?  If you're going to use a sabot, then a harder substance like bismuth or Hevi-shot would be acceptable.

I guess we'd best start looking into ways to substitute lead casting and swaging for some of these other materials and processes too, while we have time to play around.

The Yankee Martial has an interesting take on this issue.  In short his point is; yes, develop these other technologies, use them and make them main-stream.  Then, those who cast and use lead will be such a small percentage of total shooting that they could be left entirely unmolested-- There'd be no statistically significant argument in favor of messing with them.

His only problem is that he's being logical and intelligent, whereas these battles have nothing whatsoever to do with logic other than the "logic" of growing the Romish state and the intelligence required to so.

We give the Marxists an inch, they'll take a mile and then spit on us, and make no mistake about it; this has nothing to do with the environment (that's just a convenient leverage point at the moment) and everything to do with chilling the exercise of the RKBA.  Once they get enough power, all environmental "concerns" and discussions will disappear.  We've seen that play out in other countries so there's more than enough president to understand what's happening here and now.

    They're mandating that only 1% of the bullet can be composed of lead. Also hunting bullets from their approved list are the only ones that can be used.
 This is all to save the California Condor, a big buzzard that doesn't even exist in northern California. Lead bullets have been already banned in southern California, the Condor's range, for quite a few years. Despite excellent compliance by hunters the population of the big birds has not increased.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2018, 12:19:12 PM »
Yolla; yes, that's par for the course; it was never really about the condor in the first place.  That was just a convenient leverage point used to chill the exercise of a constitutionally enumerated right.  Those who embraced the premise, and no doubt many did, were, and are, merely being used by people who have no interest in the condor.  It's a sad state of affairs, and it isn't going to change.  The tactic, it must be recognized, is actually quite brilliant.

Here's a direct comparison between the plain hollowpoint and the serrated hollowpoint.  Same bullet otherwise, the 140 grain swaged, heeled, semi hollow base, ball nose, semi wadcutter HP, same load, same half gallon or two liter water container, either a bottle or carton.  The plain hollowpoint bullets appear darker in color because, having been fired some months ago, they've been lying around longer and have thus taken on a patina.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 12:24:45 PM by Omnivore »
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2018, 12:47:39 PM »
On the lead free front; here are some "polymer copper matrix" bullets from Ruger branded ammo.  They were pulled from 45 ACP cartridges and then "heeled" for loading in my Uberti Colt Dragoon.  The Dragoon has .452" chambers and these are .452" bullets.  I haven't tried sizing the bullets down in diameter, but it could probably be done with some effort.

They took a lot of extra pressure to heel them in the lube sizer, plus they tend to "spring back" a little (they're very tough).  Technically it's not a heel, but a tapered base, and the taper is only about a tenth of an inch long.  The scarp line farther forward of the heel is the point to which the bullet was seated and crimped into its brass case, apparently in a single operation.  The injection molded bullets show about a thousandth inch ovality.

These bullets are about the length of a 220 or 230 grain lead round nose, but because of the much lighter composite, and because of the cutouts in the nose, they weigh only 118 grains (extremely long for weight).  They're supposed to be good penetrators in spite of their light weight, and I believe it from what I've seen in other people's tests.  I don't know if I should use 4F powder or not, being as they're so light.  Once I get a chance I'll get out and fire a few and report back.  Could be a while.  Hunting season is fast approaching.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Classanr

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2018, 08:55:52 PM »
Those look somewhat like Lehigh's all copper machined (aka Expensive) "Extreme Penetrators" which in fact penetrate extremely well.
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Offline G Dog

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Re: Pre Serrated Hollowpoints
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2018, 03:16:22 PM »
Omni's work reminded me of those, too.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".   
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