Author Topic: another range trip... took both the 1858 and the 1847  (Read 343 times)

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Offline Frankenstein

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another range trip... took both the 1858 and the 1847
« on: September 02, 2018, 08:21:55 PM »
I took both of my BP pistols out.  The 58 was a paragon of reliability.  The 47 was more reliable than the 1st time I shot it, but still misfired a few times.

I ran #11 caps on the walker and those worked MUCH better, yet still had to deal with a few misfires.  The 777 powder had 2 instances where the cap popped to no avail.  Pyrodex pellets worked almost flawlessly, yet still misfired as well.

fortunately no bullet puller needed today, just some re-capping.  for the life of me, I'm having trouble seeing why this walker misfires like it does.  guess I need to have it smithed.  Who here specializes in that?
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Offline G Dog

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Re: another range trip... took both the 1858 and the 1847
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2018, 08:50:28 PM »
guess I need to have it smithed.  Who here specializes in that?
That would be .45 Dragoon to an absolute certainly.

My understanding and experience has been that T7 responds well to sturdy compression.

It seems to be like Black MZ in that respect but that's where similarities between the two end.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".   
                                        Ephesians 6:12  (KJV)

Offline Omnivore

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Re: another range trip... took both the 1858 and the 1847
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2018, 02:06:31 AM »
If the caps are popping reliably, but the main charges aren't, there's probably nothing a smith can do other than offer advice on loading.  For sure, real black powder ignites more easily, but T7 has been more reliable for me as compared to Pyrodex.  Loose powder or pellets, Pyrodex has often exhibited slight ignition delays for me.  Certainly, real black has been consistently more reliable, but T7 is pretty good.

The open top Colts are notorious for dropping a spent cap into the hammer channel in the frame, preventing the hammer from getting a good strike on the next cap as it hits that spent cap first.  You weren't 100% clear on the type(s) of misfires you're having with the Walker, but a spent cap jammed under the hammer against the frame is very common.  If you haven't had it happen yet, you certainly will.

45 Dragoon can help there, by installing a "cap rake", which is a steel pin screwed into the frame in the top of the hammer channel just behind the nipple position.  It prevents the cap from coming back and falling into the hammer channel.  The hammer is notched, or rather the existing hammer notch is enlarged, so the hammer can clear the cap rake and strike the caps with full force.

I'd suggest sending the Walker to 45 Dragoon just as a matter of principle though, to have the barrel/wedge/frame fitment done proper.  In extreme cases, the cylinder may be moving too far forward, away from the hammer, such that the hammer may not always make a good strike on the cap.  That's a rare condition, but not unheard of.  Uberti Colts are never fit right from the factory though, and for all I know none of the Walkers or Dragoons are, and that's where 45 D can really help, thus making it a better gun that will last longer..

If the cap is exploding with full force and the main charge doesn't light or it lights with any perceptible delay, there is either a hard obstruction inside the flash channel of the nipple (very rare), or you've left some oil inside the flash channel (very common), or you're using Pyrodex, or your powder was grossly contaminated (either beforehand, or once it hit oil left in the back of the chamber after you last cleaned it).  A gunsmith has no control over these things once you take your gun back.

I went out and fired around 30 shots this weekend, using paper cartridges exclusively, from a Pietta Remington and an Uberti Remington revolving carbine, some carts loaded with Olde Eynsford 3F black powder and some with T7 3F, and all shots went off like a modern metal cartridge gun.  I swab the insides of the nipples with pipe cleaners, and the ends of the nipples with cotton swabs (oil on the back of the nipple can contaminate the priming pellet inside the cap if the cap sits on it for any length of time), and repeatedly swab the chambers dry, using multiple fresh swabs, paying special attention to the threaded pocket at the back of the chamber where the nipples don't come quite flush in there, after cleaning.  If I absolutely, positively need my first shot to go off perfectly, as before heading out to hunt, I know that THAT, AND using real black powder, is how to ensure it.  And it will work every time, no question.  It is only when I fail to observe all those precautions that I ever have a problem with ignition.

Also, snapping a cap before loading may clear out the nipple flash channel, but it won't sop up, nor blow out, the much larger quantity of oil that may be lurking in the nipple threads in that pocket at the back of the chamber, or in the hard corner at the back of the chamber wall.  And the oil is most likely to be lurking right there where ignition of the main charge takes place, so focus on that hardest to reach place in there with the corners and the threads.  I've seen a guy have hang fires and misfires all day from an oily chamber in a single shot muzzleloader, and a revolver is no different.

Be mindful of these things, and you'll have no more problems.  And also, "bite the bullet" and order some black powder.  Lots of people use the substitutes and are satisfied with them, but it is a fact that black powder ignites more easily (which is why it's a little more dangerous to have around in quantity).
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: another range trip... took both the 1858 and the 1847
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2018, 07:34:39 AM »
G Dog and Omnivore, thanks for your recommendation!! Very kind of y'all!!
Frank, many things or combination of things can be the culprit of a "failure to fire" (not pop a cap) but a cap that pops but fails to ignite a charge is more likely (as already stated) an obstruction, partial obstruction or even weak caps themselves. If another cap will light the charge,  it could be the fault of the caps.

Mike
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Offline G Dog

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Re: another range trip... took both the 1858 and the 1847
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2018, 02:34:05 PM »
RE clean flash channels -

I will occasionally string the cones on a piece of 24-gauge bronze(ish) wire and sort of ‘say the rosary’.  (I’m not RC but the analogy always seemed apt and it sure don’t hurt none).

That will scour the flash channels without removing metal and sometimes a bit of soot will wipe off from the wire.  It’s like a circular nipple pick.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".   
                                        Ephesians 6:12  (KJV)

Offline scrubby

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Re: another range trip... took both the 1858 and the 1847
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2018, 09:06:44 AM »
guess I need to have it smithed.  Who here specializes in that?
That would be .45 Dragoon to an absolute certainly.

My understanding and experience has been that T7 responds well to sturdy compression.

It seems to be like Black MZ in that respect but that's where similarities between the two end.
I will concur on the compression aspect of this. My cartridges are 30 grains of Tiple7 under the 215gr Johnston and Dow bullet. Remington #10 caps. In an original New Model, there is a slight bit of compression, the chambers are full, and the difference in ignition time is noticeable from the "loose ammunition" loads I previously used, typically those were 25 to 30 grains under a felt wad and round ball.

Offline Capnball

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Re: another range trip... took both the 1858 and the 1847
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2018, 07:31:34 AM »
Just use enough black powder to cover the end of the nipple, just a tiny pinch and the T7 will light 100% of the time. That is if the chamber is free of adverse contaminants, like oil or water. I am testing some Treso nipples this morning to see if they will consistently ignite T7. I don't like getting a misfire once every 5-6 shots. It is a hassle to put a pinch of bp in the chamber then top with T7 main charge, just takes longer to reload. It works good, but I want to streamline the loading process as much as I can.

Offline Omnivore

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Re: another range trip... took both the 1858 and the 1847
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2018, 10:35:05 AM »
I fired some T7 last weekend with Remington #10s, and never had a hint of ignition delay.  I've used T7 in paper cartridges before, same results.  Anecdotal, but I use Tresso nipples in nearly all my guns.

The concept of using a duplex load (two kinds of powder in the chamber) never made any sense to me.  If you need black powder to get your substitute powder to start, then go ahead and use all black powder-- Keep pouring and leave out the sub.  Save yourself the extra hassle of bringing two powders into the field and adding that extra, unnecessary step to the loading process.

You're "paying a price" in the form of the added complexity of using a duplex load.  What are you purchasing for that price?  What is the benefit over using all BP, and is that benefit worth the hassle?
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: another range trip... took both the 1858 and the 1847
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2018, 01:16:33 PM »
  I've never had a missfire with T7 powder, Remington #10 caps and SlixShot nipples. Maybe it's that dry California weather that helps.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline G Dog

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Re: another range trip... took both the 1858 and the 1847
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2018, 02:21:44 PM »
I have never used a duplex load. Never needed to go that route - not even with Pyrodex.

Last weekend one of my boys and I were out for a five-hour shoot.  In addition to loose I went through 120 paper cartridges of 50 each T7 FFFg and 70 of Black MZ.  Used a .36 '51 and a .44 Remington. No hang fires and no perceptible delays on any of those.  My son shot around 70 of his carts made of BMZ and toward the end of the session got one (1) powder failure-to-detonate from a cap-fizz..  On the second try with a fresh cap the charge went off fine.  We both use Pietta’s with stock cones and No.10 CCI’s. 

If I were hunting or expecting some troubles maybe I‘d use a ‘kicker’ of black, could be, maybe.  But even after several decades of shooting C&B I’ve still not tried that.

Johnnie uses five grains of Goex to “help” ignite Pyro pellets in his MES (Medical Examiner‘s Special) load which seems a study in redundancy - although he does hope and pray for that anticipated gunfight.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".   
                                        Ephesians 6:12  (KJV)

Offline Capnball

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Re: another range trip... took both the 1858 and the 1847
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2018, 06:23:10 AM »
I shot 24rds yesterday using the new Treso nipples and everything worked perfectly. My new NMA .36 has stock nips and was dropping them and whatnot, I need to order more Treso. So far my 1851 and one of my 1858 have Treso. My two ROA function perfectly with what looks like stock nipples. If I continue to get 100% ignition, I will just run T7 for most of my guns. If BP was as available as T7, I would just burn BP. My testing indicated anything over a pinch of BP, was too much and detrimental to accuracy and velocity. I have yet to try a jar of 30gr Pydrodex pellets I found foraging around my garage. I remember using Pyrodex years ago and it was the worst propellant I ever used. Hard to light, smoky and dirty.