Author Topic: Dixie sale on match grade '58  (Read 855 times)

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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2018, 11:12:12 PM »
Can't tell from the two descriptions that they're any different.  The Shooters Model description simply picks up where the Dixie model description leaves off.

"Progressive rifling" isn't necessarily the same thing as "gain twist".  "Progressive rifling" could mean "choke bore" wherein the bore is larger at the breech end, thus resulting in "progressive" depth rifling.  Sine they use the standard terminology for twist rate I would bet, if I had to bet, that "progressive rifling" in this case means it's a choke bore rather than gain twist.  Not that it s a bad thing; a choke bore is said to be a potentially fantastic setup for lead bullets.

Also for the price you'd think they could be bothered to list the bore, groove and chamber diameters, or explain what they mean by "progressive".

With a 30 or 32 inch twist, it's optimized for round ball.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline LonesomePigeon

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2018, 08:20:13 AM »
 Omni, I have the "Shooter's" and it has gain twist, the rifling starts slow at the breech and gets faster towards the muzzle. I would think the Dixie is the same. I do have a Uberti "Santa Fe" Hawken rifle that has a choke bore. I'm not sure if it's just the rifling that is choke or the whole bore but it is very accurate with a variety of loads.

Offline Pustic

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2018, 10:07:06 AM »
It's a Pietta, not worth what they want for it.  :9)
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Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2018, 09:33:30 PM »
There's more to a Shooters Model than just a gain twist barrel.  The Taylor's & Co. parts schematic shows eleven more parts listed as exclusive for the Shooters Model, including the frame. However one of those parts is not a cylinder, so maybe that answers Omni's question about chamber diameter (standard .446"). I'd imagine a lot more hand fitting at the factory goes into a Shooter Model than a standard 1858.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline LonesomePigeon

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2018, 08:44:18 PM »
I have an older "Deluxe Model" from the 1980's, which was basically a Pietta "Shooter's" made specially for Navy Arms and I have a new Pietta "Shooter's Model" made a year or two ago. There are some differences but they both have gain twist and correct chamber to bore dimensions, .456" chambers and .456" bore. The main difference is the "Deluxe" has a fixed front sight while the "Shooter's" has a dovetail front sight. The internal parts of the "Deluxe" seem to be better made.

Personally, I think they are worth it. They come with an action job but a true match shooter would probably still want to do a better one. My best target from a bench was 5 shots touching, about 3/4" center to center, plus 1 called flyer that was my fault about 1" outside the main group. Distance was 25 yards. 20 grains 3F + Cream of Wheat + .457 roundball + lamb tallow/beeswax over the ball. 

One other interesting thing. My "Shooter's" cylinder has 2 punch marks on the front from what I assume is a hardness test. The punch marks are blued over so apparently they are doing hardness tests at the factory on these.

Offline bladesmith

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2018, 06:06:06 AM »
There's nothing wrong with a Pietta. They shoot just fine. That 20gr load is the same one I used [ except I used CM in place of the COW ] for 10 to 12 years of target shooting. Now I'm back into shooting MNA's, the two I just bought seem to like that same load. The Buffalo and carbine are loaded heavier. Can a match grade barrel be bought ?

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2018, 08:28:30 AM »
OK, that clears up the issue of twist.

Yolla; the cylinders are certainly different for the Shooters model at least.  I have one, and as Lonesome says the chambers are larger in diameter.  They're also shallower, apparently so as to limit capacity.

Lonesome; if your bore is the same diameter as the chambers then there's no engagement with the rifling at all except by obturation.  I think you mean to say that the groove diameter is .456" and so the bore is going to be something closer to .440" or .445".  Also with a .456" chamber a .457" ball is pretty small.  But if it shoots as well as you say then that's what counts.  I'd still be tempted to try .460" ball just to see what difference it makes, if any.

If they shoot as well they say, then a thousand dollars isn't really a lot.  Plenty of modern revolvers sell for considerably more than that.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2018, 10:59:36 AM »

Yolla; the cylinders are certainly different for the Shooters model at least.  I have one, and as Lonesome says the chambers are larger in diameter.  They're also shallower, apparently so as to limit capacity.


  That makes sense. Good to hear from someone who's actually got one. I had considered buying one so I could put calipers and micrometer to it, but it's a little to expensive to just be a looky Lou item.  I'm curious if the bolt on a Shooter is thicker than the standard model. All my 1858 have a lot of slop in the bolt to cylinder notch fit and it would be nice if substituting a Shooter bolt could be used to eliminate the play. I tried ordering one from Taylors but they don't have them in stock.
  So if you get a chance, please measure the part of the bolt that sticks up through the frame of your Shooter.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline bladesmith

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2018, 02:27:52 PM »
Yolla, how old are your guns and who made them ? MY recent Pietta purchases [ 3 ] all have a tight fit between the bolt and cylinder.

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2018, 07:33:58 PM »
They are all Piettas, 1992, 2014, and two brand new ones. Try rotating your cylinder a little more forcefully, the hand or the hammer could be holding it. Cylinder notches on my three newer guns  run about 155"to .159" wide and bolts are ".153 to .154" thick. The two older guns are the worst offenders. Perhaps I'm being a  too critical, but I'd still like to find a source of thicker bolts for custom fitting.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline bladesmith

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2018, 06:33:34 AM »
I don't put a lot of force trying to rotate the cylinder. If the timing is correct, and the bolt does it job, there's nothing other than me trying to rotate it, so why try ? At least that's the way I look at it. Maybe I'm missing something. I don't profess to be a gunsmith expert. I've already expanded my knowledge quite a bit by reading what some of you guys have written.  :)

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2018, 11:33:45 PM »
Yolla; I don't have the whole gun but just the cylinder.  Purchasing a cylinder was the extent of my looky Lou-ism.  Also I wanted to find out if the larger chambers would mate up with the groove diameter of the standard models I have.  I don't recall the exact relationship, but the Shooter's model chambers are around four or five over groove.  Doable, I guess, but I haven't tried it yet.

With your skill set I'm sure you could find a way to widen an existing bolt, or make a new one.  Filing it down a bit and hard-soldering a shim, or shims, onto it comes to mind, for example.  Not much more work than fitting a new one that's made overly wide for the purpose, except for the heat-treat issue...  Then again, soft soldering, using a heat sink to protect the springy bits is certainly an option, and I've even done hard soldering using a heat sink to preserve the factory lacquer on a brass instrument, so even such crazy things are possible (if not necessarily advisable).  The trick there is to use high heat, so as to get in and do it fast and get out fast. I used a custom-fit, brass heat sink (though silver would be much better), wrapped in wet cloth.  On the other hand I've also re-heat-treated a steel part after hard soldering. It can burn the solder, sure, but it did work. Do your fitting afterwards though.  Then again, it is theoretically possible to hard solder, at a higher-than-necessary temp (beyond the steel''a transition point), then quench.  Now you have a hardened part, which can be tempered without melting the solder.  I dunno; just thinking aloud.  I probably have made it more complicated than it really is.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2018, 12:31:18 PM »
Thanks for your input Omni. I'll probably just make up a new one since I tend to bugger up anything I touch with a torch.  I was just hoping that the Shooter bolt would be a little thicker and available. It doesn't seem to be available right now. I avoid making anything that I can buy at a reasonable price.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline LonesomePigeon

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Re: Dixie sale on match grade '58
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2018, 11:41:45 PM »
Yolla Bolly Brad, I have ordered both "Shooter's" and regular Pietta '58 bolts from VTI. They are different. The ones I got came oversize and were too wide to go into the cylinder notches. I think they are that way on purpose so you can file them to fit.