Author Topic: American Pioneer Powder and lube  (Read 700 times)

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Offline Shirt

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American Pioneer Powder and lube
« on: May 10, 2018, 06:34:01 PM »
So, the ole guy at the gun store talked me into buying a can of American Pioneer. Unlike me until I research the heck out of something. Don’t know if I’ll be real happy with it. I just made a metric crap ton of lube, well, enough. Sounds more dramatic that way. Now I understand lube is not recommended. Is the stuff chain fire proof?  Also 3F looks more like 2f. Hope it comes out of a flask spout okay. I think I may burn it up in my .50 hawken if it’s not a good fit for the revolver

Ugh, I’m usually more careful.

Any good reasons I should be a bit more excited than I am?

Offline mike116

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Re: American Pioneer Powder and lube
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2018, 06:55:47 PM »
AP is a good sub.   I've used it for Cap & Ball and in metallic cartridges.    I used a dry felt wad and no lube to see how it performed.   It's low fouling and I had no fouling problems with loose powder or in cartridges.    It's way cleaner than Pyrodex but some say it is weaker than other subs.   I didn't notice any reduced power but I shoot full loads and don't have a chronograph so I can't say for sure.     I don't use any subs anymore but I would use AP again if the need arose.     Don't pass any judgement until you try it for yourself.   That goes for most things when it comes to shooting.   

Offline G Dog

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Re: American Pioneer Powder and lube
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2018, 09:19:45 PM »
I have used a little of that stuff in pistols and it was midlin' fine.  The coarseness of the 3F seemed unusual, even a little off-putting, but it compacts well and shoots good and cleared the spout with no hang up.  Burns cleaner than Pyro P or T7 but not cleaner than Black MZ.  It may not be every guy’s first choice but I can't think of a single reason why NOT to use it.  Since it was available and you bought it - burn it up.  A pound won't last long anyway.

[The world renown and ever so very expert (just ask him) Randy Wakeman does not recommend APP which, to my way of thinking, is probably a good reason to at least try it out.]

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Offline Shirt

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Re: American Pioneer Powder and lube
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2018, 07:17:46 AM »
Thanks for the input gents. All about doing my own trial and taking it from there 
Mainly curious about the no lube recommendation, as it may or may not relate to a potential chain fire on rare occasion. .454 balls shave a pretty good ring for a tight seal. I could see a non lubed was being useful to possibly sweep the chamber walls of excess residue.

As far as power, long as it makes it through the paper. I did have a blooper once that bounced off of cardboard and rolled back to my feet. That was an odd experience.

Offline Kaeto

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Re: American Pioneer Powder and lube
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2018, 10:42:59 AM »
My understanding is the lube is simply to make the fouling softer and easier to clean. A properly fitted ball and cap stops chainfires.
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: American Pioneer Powder and lube
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2018, 01:19:42 PM »
That's right; a properly loaded gun, in good condition, without a wad or anything but powder and lead, should never chain-fire.

I've never experienced a chain fire, and I consider the phenomenon to be a myth, brought on by poor loading practices and damaged cylinders.  Yes I’ve seen it happen in videos, but there’s no excuse for it.  Some guns have a tendency to chain-fire, and I assert that it's because of dinged chamber mouths, which are cutting a flash channel into the lead.

If you're terribly concerned, you could use a dry felt wad.  Better yet, make sure there are no little dings or burrs at the mouths of the chambers.  The mere fact of shaving lead is no guarantee of that (and it cannot be over-stressed, because the "street wisdom" on that says shaved lead is your total proof – news flash; it isn’t).

A .457" ball isn't a bad way to go either, and some people swear by them because they provide more bearing surface, thus more resistance, and thus a hotter powder burn, and thus better kinetic energy.  My Lee, so-called .454" ball molds drop balls closer to .457", so that's what I use.  Mostly though I use conicals in the 180 to 225 grain range, sized to one to two thousandths over chamber diameter, with lubed grooves, and a lube cookie under the bullet.

So another issue there is getting good fill-out when casting your lead.  Many people run their molds too cold, or use excess lube at the sprue plate pivot, and so their molds are never running right and they settle for defective bullets.  I run my molds hot, and dry, and I always expect near-perfect fill-out.

Using lube with APP won't hurt anything though, will it?

And as was said earlier, the purpose of the "lube" is to mix with the powder fouling and keep it soft, such that every subsequent shot wipes out the fouling from the previous shot.  Thus there is no accumulation in the bore.  Thus your 100th shot leaves the bore no more fouled than did your first shot.

As to whether APP would actually work like that without any lube?  I'd have to see the gun camera film on that one.  I haven't tried it.
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Offline Shirt

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Re: American Pioneer Powder and lube
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2018, 05:32:43 PM »
Maybe reading too much into it

Offline ssb73q

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Re: American Pioneer Powder and lube
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2018, 05:27:00 AM »
Maybe reading too much into it

Hi Shirt, Black Mz is a newer version of APP, basically APP. Black Mz is my favorite goto powder as a substitute for BP. Like APP, Black Mz is easy ignition, minimal fouling and corrosion, makes lots of smoke, and cleans up easily. While the Black Mz doesn't require lube, I use lubed wads between powder and ball just to be sure of minimizing any chance of chainfire.

I was initially negative about Black Mz during powder testing, but the desirable attributes finally won me over. See:

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php/topic,6410.0.html

Regards,
Richard
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 05:32:01 AM by ssb73q »
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Offline Shirt

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Re: American Pioneer Powder and lube
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2018, 07:10:10 AM »
Thanks for info sir. If I see any around , I may try that as well

Offline Sheriff Langston

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Re: American Pioneer Powder and lube
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2018, 07:52:14 AM »
I tried it & it "bridged" a lot in my powder measure because of the coarse grains. Unlike regular powder it seemed prone to getting caught on the sharp rear edges of the powder meter tube.
I cured the problem with a chamfer/deburr tool from the reloading bench. I just cut the square shoulder to a taper!
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