Author Topic: Liege  (Read 689 times)

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Offline Racing

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Liege
« on: February 17, 2018, 07:22:29 PM »


As much as you turn stateside to buy revolvers,when it comes to scatterguns look no farther than Europe.
Real ornament pieces are WAY cheaper here "at home" then stateside.

Now,as many of you are aware our guns laws over here are a tad different right. So that there in the pic was originally a pinfire gun made in 1860 down in Liege by gunmaker Arendt. A half famous dude TBH..
Well.
A pinfire gun is under permit to us right (no..don´t even ask..) while a cap n ball one is not. Alright. Well,this gun is legal even sans a permit.
Huh? But it´s a damn pinfire gun?
Yes,it was ORIGINALLY a pinfire gun,one that someone grew tired of being a pinfire gun way way back and modified it into using separate caps instead. Guess they had a hard time finding ammo for it without breaking the bank?

STILL a breechloader tho,and i have yet to figure that one out. Yeah. There´s nipples up top right. Works as well as anything i guess,it´s just that it being a breechloader it is reasonable that SOME sort of cartridge was used,just not a completely self contained one.
Gun is 18mm in caliber btw,which translates into 13 gauge  {:( Say WUT? Yeah. 13 gauge. In Europe we even at the time used the metric system boys.. ;)
However.
18mm or 18,4mm (12ga)..weeeeell.. I had to hone the barrels out right. Still undecided about the "chambers" of it and how to handle that. Choke there was/is none.
So,of course,what i´m looking into is if i could use common cardboard based 12ga hulls and just cut a "flame hole" into ´em and take it from there?
That would sure as hell be rather convenient. Sure,not nearly as fast to reload as a self contained cartridge gun,but it beats the crap out of muzzle loading from that respect no?

Gun then?
What can i say? Engraved out the fabled. Only parts not so are the triggers. Rest of it is. Even the backstrap. Albeit being engraved as it is the "worth" of these guns are about...well,real low..around here so i made a coach gun out of it already.
Not that it was all that long barreled to begin with. No matter now them pipes are all in all 20" and done deal. Damast of course.
Gun in general is in real good condition. Had to get rid of old shellack from the stock,and that done i sanded it "clean" for lack of better words before handing it liberal amounts of stock oil. Don´t really care all that much for clearcoat..

Haven´t shot it yet. As stated i need to figure some sort of cartridge solution out for it. I BELIEVE it was originally run,after the convert,with separate brass bottoms and then paper cartridges. I´ve seen a few such mods out there..
But..
If i could make that work with "old style" 12ga paper hulls..that would certainly be neat. Guess i´m in for some measuring and cutting up huh?

DVC - 2018

Offline Hawg

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Re: Liege
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2018, 08:01:15 PM »
Nice old gun. They probably just reloaded regular 12 gauge shot shells for it with no primer. Maybe a piece of cigarette paper over the primer hole.
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

Offline Dave Shooter

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Re: Liege
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2018, 04:03:14 AM »
Neat!  Can you show pics of how it takes caps now?  Did they just thread a nipple through where the pin on the cartridges would have gone?

Offline Racing

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Re: Liege
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2018, 04:42:18 AM »
No,not just a thread. Doubt that would take the pressures inherent?
There´s a bung on there and the whole contraption is tilted rearwards.

Yeah. I´ll get around to pics. (T^
DVC - 2018

Offline Racing

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Re: Liege
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2018, 04:33:02 AM »


No. As you can see the mod is permanent. What they´ve done is drill right throught he recoil shield/thrust bottom and tap for what seemed to be metric 5mm.
The nipples are thus one off,and what´s more completely shot. (I guess you can see that in the pic if you look closely).
So the idea is for regular pistol caps,as i´ve measured,to flame through the rather ample hole left down to the middle of a "cartridge" of some sorts.
To have in mind is that the gun is "chambered" for the then 13ga (18mm) pinfire cartridge,which presents an issue as i have in mind to make the setup work.

Brass cartridges in its own rights i guess,gas tight they can certainly be not with this setup and there is NO other way to fire said gun than through the caps. Thus,it falls within the realms of the law around here.

To find old brass cartridges around here these days though would be the needle in the haystack,as would the 13ga on a whole too.

Therefore i´m honing the barrels out to 12ga instead. As nice as the gun looks on the outside,just as bad is it on the inside from that respect.
Barrels of it are rather pitted and what not,and add to that what i just explained above as being chambered.

So the idea of mine,dunno if it´ll work,is to use old style paper/cardboard cartridges,just sans the primers. Put a cigarette paper over the void left by the primer and then fill up per usual as far as a cartridge to in turn have the thing fire via regular caps,as we´re accustomed to them.
This also brings the issue of "flame through". Ie;i need to adress the clearance inherent at the breech. Haven´t settled on anything there thus far. As is the mod has NOT taken this into account and i honestly don´t know how much of an issue it might be either.
That flame WILL be present i guess is evident,question is if it´ll amount to any ills?

Difference in diameter between 13ga and 12ga in turn is within SAAMI specs and i´d be hellbent to send the barrel off for proofing seing the age of the thing.
Ie;i intend to use "cowboy loads" with this thing and that´s it. Mainly as i find the gun..different. As is i´m giving thought to how to handle the extraction of the spent cases.
Modify into an early setup a´la the 20-30yrs newer guns? One that revolves around the breech being opened up..
I dunno at the moment.
Think i´ll have to see what comes out of the bag on that one. OTOH..there´s no real need of speed reload with this thing anyways,IOW a wooden stick a´la a muzzle loader would work too i guess.
DVC - 2018

Offline Hawg

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Re: Liege
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2018, 08:41:25 AM »
That should work fine as long as you use real bp. My 63 Sharps had two 80 degree bends in the firing channel and with a standard RWS musket cap and Swiss FF it worked fine. Pyrodex fired every time but it was akin to a poorly timed flintlock.
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

Offline Len

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Re: Liege
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2018, 08:46:44 AM »
Great project there, Racing.
As to cartridge, why not try the Smith's solution with a brass thinghie. And for extraction some kind of angled slot at the bottom where a knife would get a grip or a pin into the flame hole?

Offline Hawg

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Re: Liege
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2018, 09:27:39 AM »
Great project there, Racing.
As to cartridge, why not try the Smith's solution with a brass thinghie. And for extraction some kind of angled slot at the bottom where a knife would get a grip or a pin into the flame hole?

It already has notches at the top for the pinfire pins. Maybe a brass hook to pull fired cases out.
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

Offline mike116

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Re: Liege
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2018, 01:31:05 PM »
If you are going to hone the chambers to fit 12ga. shells I would use brass cartridges.   You would only need a few and you can reload them forever.   No chance of the paper separating from the brass either.    You could make a brass hook to stick into the primer hole to extract the shells.    You also need to measure the chamber length.   Brass shells would be easy to trim to length.    Magtech sells them for $25 for a box of 25 shells.   They have a primer pocket sized for large pistol primers.   The flash hole could be enlarged if need be.

Offline Racing

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Re: Liege
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2018, 04:59:35 AM »
Am i even allowed to export/import casings just like that?
DVC - 2018

Offline mike116

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Re: Liege
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2018, 05:53:33 AM »
I would think so but I am not sure at all.    Check with https://www.buffaloarms.com/  they may or may not ship to you.   Reloading components such as powder, primer and bullets do have some restrictions.   I'm not sure about empty cases.   

Offline mike116

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Re: Liege
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2018, 06:35:18 AM »
Buffalo Arms says they will ship to Sweden so there may not be many restrictions on shells.   Down at the bottom of their website is a button to click that lists the countries they will ship to. 
https://www.buffaloarms.com/12-gauge-brass-shotgun-hulls-for-2-1-2-chambers-box-of-25-mhsbr12

Offline Racing

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Re: Liege
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2018, 04:54:37 PM »
Tell you what.
You were certainly on the money and casings like that are in turn readily available here at home.
So gonna pick a couple of boxes up next trip i do for BP.
DVC - 2018

Offline mike116

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Re: Liege
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2018, 06:28:47 PM »
No doubt you'll save money if you can get them in Sweden.   Shipping would be expensive and Buffalo Arms is not known for their low shipping rates.

Offline Racing

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Re: Liege
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2018, 05:36:37 PM »
Seing how this conversion was rather poorly made, as you might have understood i´ve taken to clean the thing up. Bit by bit.

So. I opted to ream the chambers with an adjustable reamer,which didn´t really have anything with the conversion to do,just that the gun was originally chambered as an 18mm gun,which is just a few tenths away from a 12 gauge (approx 18,4mm) and as the bore and chambers carried a tad of rust..
Doing so i adhered to the SAAMI specs of nothing going any further dimension wise then SAAMI recommends,and deem that reasonable to be able to keep firing the thing with blackpowder.
As it is a damasque blackpowder gun..i guess it´s kind of moot mentioning that even..then again,you never know.

So. Therein lies a current dilemma of mine. This is a scattergun right and as such barrel conformity..DOES play a role,question in case is basically just by how much.
Reason i bring it up is that i´m considering reaming the barrels out too.

Due to the rust/pitting i´ve this far opted to hone the barrels with a centerless honer (you know the type,with lots of abrasive small balls attached to a flexible twisted center pole) and in doing so have gotten rid of loads of the rust issues no doubt. Not to the point where i´d call the barrels "as new" by any measure but certainly a TON better than what was.

Issue with that is that when you hone that much material off (measured in tenths of a mm) the barrels inner faces have a tendency to come out anything but absolutely level,and this is the reason i´m giving thought to putting a reamer through each barrel.
If i do i will ream them out by the use of a powerdrill in its low "screwdriver" setting and with liberal amounts of cutting oil.

I´m still a tad undecided as to the needs of doing so though.
Now. Sure. I know a TAD when it comes to firearms from a tech POW but more importantly i know how to read,and reading up it seems that the early 12ga guns were all over the place as far as barrel diameter, any and all chokes disregarded.

From what i´ve read this stands especially true for Belgian and English made guns,which could originally in essence be bored to anything from 18mm flat to 19.8mm-and still be considered "average" 12ga guns.
Now. Please keep in mind that i´ve cut the barrels of my gun down. This to make a coach gun out of it,an idea i´ve carried around for quite a bit. Entire length of gun is like 1 meter approx (around 1 yard)
Seing that any and all chokes and such finesse is basically sans merit. At all. Idea of this gun..i´ll let that be for a little while and see where further development takes me.. ;)
But suffice it to say that it is about me competing and the swedish firearms act.
In short,i´m quite happy having this piece as a complete cylindrical setup. Both barrels,no worries,as this gun will mainly be about hitting targets within 20 paces.

As is the bores are like 18,2-18,3 and seing that there´s still AMPLE material left in the barrels,compared to other blackpowder guns.
After all this is not about firing slugs exactly..

The actual conversion then..not exactly done by a gunsmith,i´ll tell you that much. From the looks of it the nipples are the same thread as our dear revolvers,which in turn dates the conversion i guess and by that also why it looks the way it does.
The involved pieces of the gun are after all out of hardened steel and i guess therein lies the issue,whoever made this didn´t take to the fact that it is craploads easier to anneal the pieces at hand and THEN drill and what not into it and just reharden afterwards..
Anyways.
Hammers have been modded,and has been pointed out the "channels" cut into the breech face as sort of "tunnels" to direct the flame of the caps..well.. I need to adress that.
In short it simply looks like crap and i´m handling that bit by bit.

What i HAVE done so far is just fire primers off,and the setup sure as hell works! I´ll tell you that much! Flame protrudes no doubt and seing how easily BP ignites i foresee no issues with this firing what so ever.
Need be i guess "magnum" caps could be used and if everything else fails i guess the setup could be converted to take regular musket caps-the four winged type.
Sincerly doubt that will be needed however.

But.
An issue is the breech. True is that if we regard our revolvers for a bit we do see protruding flame between the cylinder and the barrel,at the guns breech-for lack of better words. We know not to get in harms way there right...

I have NO IDEA WHAT SO EVER how this gun has been loaded up previously and seing how i´ve reamed the chambers out to take the full 12ga shells- the barrels indeed DO have chambers per se since the onset of the gun,i´ve also wiped out any traces as to how the guns was loaded up back in the day.
MY take here is that i will use brass 12ga shells of 65mm (2,5" worth to imperial folk).

Idea i have is rather simple. 12ga brass shells. No cap installed what so ever,indeed just a straight hole into the main charge. To prevent blackpowder drizzling out of the hole i plan to just stick a small piece of cigarette paper in there first thing. To make the thing easier to ignite,seing the distance the flame has to travel-which is like half an inch maybe-i plan to "prime" the cartridge with the same powder we use for our revolvers. Ie; 3F. I guess 5-10 grains worth will do it?
Then main charge,followed by overpowder card...and so on. You know the drill.

Now. As this is a folding gun that brings that there´s clearance between the recoil shield and the barrel breech. Some of this might very well be taken up by the rim of the cartridges,i even expect it to and if it doesn´t i´ll weld material in there and ream that to size need be,but it STILL leaves a rather pronounced "gap",which the flame can (and will) certainly exit.

Right. Enter the French made Chassepot rifle of the 1860´s. A pinfire rifle that uses a paper cartridge alright,just it is a breech loader that works with a common day bolt and lug lockup.
The pin travels the entire bolt basically and protrudes like a small cone shaped nozzle where it keeps on going,protrudes the paper of the cartridge and hits the rear (of the cartridge) mounted primer.
The Chassepot uses a rubber seal to make this setup gastight...please mark that.

So. What we´ve get for cheap these days that might very well work as sorts of a gas seal is a common O-ring. What i have in mind is cutting the brass to take such an O-ring,and this at a depth where the O-ring will protrude enough from the shell face to not only make up for the clearance of the breech in itself but to compress as well.
Idea here is NOT to make the O-ring withstand a friggin storm,it is to withstand blowing out upon firing. A WAY simpler task. Ie;keep gas where it needs to be,within the barrel,for a very very brief period of time.
CAN rubber be used to this means? I vote yes albeit open flame. Again. This will be a "once and throw away" item (the O-rings that is). Ie;as i install these O-rings into a channel cut into the rear of the shells...
Yes. I´m aware of that the cut will weaken the foot/base of the shell. Of course i am,and thus i want to have the actual shells in hand before deciding on IF to do this and if so WHERE on the footprint of it.
O-rings in turn does NOT have to be round but can very well be square ones. Actual fit of O-ring in the channel will of course be imperative too,and to keep them in place a few drops of crazy glue will surely suffice.
Again.
Once and throw away..
Seing that i´m even giving thought to cutting the corresponding channel into the thrust face of the breech too and in that manner actually provide for a "labyrinth seal" of sorts. That would however..nah..unsure.
The rubber rings on the shells,ok. Cutting a channel into the thrust area though..that´d be asking a lot as you close the gun up. Better in such case with a higher rate of compression of the O-ring?

IF this works this brings that this will be a cartridge gun. This in turn will bring the issue of extraction of spent cases..and if so i will look into this as well.

That said boys.
Please gimme your thoughts. Not only on the O-ring idea but on the reaming of the barrels as well please.
DVC - 2018