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Author Topic: New bullet for percussion 44s  (Read 4411 times)

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Offline old fogey

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Re: New bullet for percussion 44s
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2017, 06:52:29 PM »
Dang Omni, read that post about using epoxy to mold the front of the bullet seating-ram to the bullet (although I must confess, think I'll try a paper tube with saran-wrap over the top of the bullet as well as inside of the tube "mold")! Just have to figure out how best to compensate for exact "chamber" seating depth (to make my ersatz-plunger over-sized so as to let me know "when enough is enough", so to speak)! Thanks for posting this thread (missed the .36 cal. one)!

      Think might order one of those complete replacement stainless .44 loading lever's w/ plunger (Code # A441/IX, $65.00 + s&h at VTI,) just so I could just interchange the whole assembly to swap when using round ball!
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 06:58:28 PM by old fogey »

Offline Omnivore

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Re: New bullet for percussion 44s
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2017, 10:22:11 PM »
Fogey; I could see a paper tube working.  For seating the wide flatpoint bullets of course all you need is a flat tipped plunger, so for a Remington you could turn it and face it off.  On some of these Uberti Colts with deep cavities at the plunger tip, made for pointy ended conicals, filling them in to some degree makes sense.  Either way is fairly simple.

With a flat tipped plunger of course you MUST lock the cylinder into proper index before seating each bullet.  None of that leaving it on half cock and just spinning it to each position by hand-- That works fine for round ball but not for these.

For a seating depth stop I think you'd probably have to enlarge the plunger bore to a larger size, like Yolla did on his, so the plunger could have an oversized shoulder on it.  Only thing there is you're committed to one specific charge volume for any given projectile.
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Offline G Dog

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Re: New bullet for percussion 44s
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2017, 03:57:24 PM »
With a flat tipped plunger of course you MUST lock the cylinder into proper index before seating each bullet.  None of that leaving it on half cock and just spinning it to each position by hand-- That works fine for round ball but not for these.

Is that necessary to get that particular bullet to ram in straight and/or is it peculiar to a flat tipped plunger?  I’m using 45-190’s just now on stock Pietta Colts and Rems and leave the gun on half-cock during loading.
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: New bullet for percussion 44s
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2017, 05:59:44 PM »
Quote
Is that necessary to get that particular bullet to ram in straight and/or is it peculiar to a flat tipped plunger?

It's peculiar to a flat tipped plunger.  For the most part.

The Accurate Molds 45-190R and 190S, and the Lee 450-200-1R, all have something of a ball end.  Depending on how, or to what degree of "secureness" the plunger self centers over the bullet nose, you may be perfectly OK without locking the cylinder.

The totally flat tipped plunger has no way of centering over the chamber, so the the chamber is slightly out of alignment with the plunger, the plunger will be forced hard into the chamber mouth, deforming it more or less, depending on seating pressure, the hardness of the steel, and the degree of misalignment.

A round ball self center very positively with the chamber, and a theoretical plunger with a near hemispherical tip will center very positively with the ball.  Thus the plunger is positively centered with the chamber.  That's the best of possible scenarios.  The Remington under doesn't really have that much positive engagement with the ball, but it's seems to me that it works pretty well leaving the gun on half cock while seating round ball.

There is another issue though, nearly, or just as, important as the plunger tip shape.  The Remington design, as beautiful as it is, has a serious flaw.  Due to the geometry of the loading lever and link, the link is placing nearly as much force upward (toward the cylinder arbor) as it is backward (toward the back of the chamber,  it's roughly a 45 degree angle AT THAT MOMENT WHEN THE PLUNGER ENTERS THE CHAMBER.  A conical bullet may fit and center perfectly with the plunger, BUT if the plunger is fairly loose in the frame (mass they tend to be) and the plunger has very little support in the frame because most of it is spanning the gap inside the loading window as the plunger tip first enters the chamber, the the plunger can force the nose of the bullet upward toward the cylinder arbor.

So it is that Yolla and I have both built new, extended length plungers.  The extra length means that the plunger is fully supported in the frame as it enters the chamber mouth.  The large off-axis force applied to the plunger by the lever link therefore results in very little off-center-drift of the plunger tip, so conicals of any type will seat straighter AND the plunger is physically incapable of touching the chamber mouth (at least when the cylinder is in lockup).

So there are two issues there.  One is plunger engagement with the projectile (a flat tipped plunger has none) and the other is the plunger being forced off center by the lever link.  They're related, but separate.  The "nose" of a round ball is very close to the ball's "drive band" also, whereas a long nosed conical has it's nose much farther away from the front drive band.  That means there's more possibility of forcing a long nosed bullet off center during seating IF two things occur at the same time--  The hollow tipped plunger engages securely with the bullet AND the plunger is being forced off center by the lever link.

I've dinged the hell out of all the chambers in a Remington doing that, seating very hard near the chamber mouths, meaning that your load is such a full one that your maximum pressure on the lever occurs with the tip of the plunger right at the chamber mount.  Nasty!  That's when I decided the gun needs a much longer plunger, with the lever modified to accommodate it.  You've seen the photos.

Also further submit that a lot of the chainfires that occur, which we never experience, are facilitated at least in part by dinged chamber mouths. That's never addressed in the manuals.

The Colt "creeping" style loading lever as designed by Root, which Colt later also used on all the 1860 and later percussion revolvers, is vastly superior in that regard, as it places an almost perfectly linear force on the plunger, and the plunger has much more support in the barrel than a Remington plunger has in the frame.  So if you want to shoot a lot of conicals and want to keep any required gun modification to a minimum, get an Uberti Colt '60 Army.  Or not.  The Remington does have it's advantages too.  The Colt needs a cap rake at minimum, and you'll almost certainly want to form fit the plunger tip.

Stuff like that.  And so it is again that I'll say "we design the bullet for the gun and the gun for the bullet".  They had it largely figured out in the 1860s, but I'm still learnin'.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline G Dog

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Re: New bullet for percussion 44s
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2017, 09:21:26 PM »


That was a through answer to my question, thank you. 

Complements on that bullet design; that’s one boss slug!  Accurate has added your 45-225R to their permanent lineup in just the past few days.  It wasn’t there last week.  I really enjoy examining their C&B bullet designs and comparing specs and am quite pleased to see yours among them now. 

(I’m currently using the 190S that DD4 cast. I recently bought slightly over eight pounds worth and am enjoying them immensely.  I had to carve a new mandrel for making American Spirit conical carts.  That only took a few minutes and I got it dialed.  Still working on a mandrel that allows me to fit felt wads and still produces a cart short enough to load on the gun.  I’ll get there.) 

Are you still thinking of a hollow point modification for part of your 225R mold?  What do you anticipate as the likely weight reduction with such a hollow point modification?


"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".   
                                        Ephesians 6:12  (KJV)

Offline Omnivore

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Re: New bullet for percussion 44s
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2017, 12:35:24 AM »
It's good to see others experimenting with cartridges.  You may have to fiddle to get the dowel just right, but once you get it, you got it.  That 190S is a well thought-out design I think.  It has enough heel length to slip in and not stand too high above the cylinder, and it should fit plungers intended for round ball.

I am still thinking of getting one or two of the three mold cavities HP'd, but since I haven't fired any yet I figure I'll wait and get some idea how they shoot.  A typical hollowpoint takes out around ten grains.  There are several, very different hollow point designs though, so it could be a lot more or a bit less.  Being as I shoot pure lead in these guns, the HP shouldn't be too wide or too deep.  A relatively shallow "cup" hollow point would probably be all it needs.

The neat thing is, if you're getting the mold modified to take bar and pins, you can order two or more pin types, for different HP styles.  I wouldn't think it would take much to get this bullet to open up, especially at Walker, or Remington carbine velocities, so less than ten grains I should think.  Maybe the carbine would push it just fast enough to expand without the HP.  I'd have to kill somethin' with it to really know, but I suppose I could do some relative expansion tests with the pistols and carbine and see what happens, then try to guess what would happen in hunting.

I'm a little surprised the 200S, with its wide flat point, didn't mushroom out in that deer last fall, until it smacked heavy bone on the far side leg.  The 225L has the same meplat, with more weight, which will slow it down slightly I assume, and so it would probably be less likely to mushroom.  It's all in what you hit too, I guess, but a deer's heart lung cavity isn't much, so maybe an HP is the way to go.  I haven't hunted with anything but 50 cal rifle and round ball until last fall, so I have just the one shot to go by when it comes to flat points from a pistol.

I'm just playin' though, really.  That 200S bullet seemed to work very well last fall.  No complaints there, but it was a VERY close range shot, with 50 grains of OE behind it.  At two or three times the distance, from an 8" Remington and maybe 35 grains, it's a bit of a different formula.  I guess the latter wouldn't be quite technically legal in WA State, so then there's the 18" carbine, which will push the 200S a bit faster with 35 grains behind it, than the Walker and 50 grains can do.  Pretty neat stuff there.  So the 225L project is a lark.  We'll see what it does, after a lot of shooting.

The new bullet is the 45-225L, by the way.  I don't see a 225R yet.

I do now have some cartridges made up for the Walker, with the 225L, 45 grains of O.E. 3F and a lube cookie in between.  I'll roll a few more, and then make up a bunch for the Remingtons this week, as I await a chance to get out and test these loads in at least three guns.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 12:39:26 AM by Omnivore »
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Omnivore

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Re: New bullet for percussion 44s
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2017, 04:55:09 PM »
Here's the 225L in a Pietta Remington chamber with 35 grains of Old Eynsford and a thin card under it.

Dead flush with the cylinder face, there's still room for a little more compression, but this is moderate compression which was quite easy -- no more seating pressure than I'd use on any other load, including round ball with a lighter charge.

Also note the total lack of bullet nose deformation.  If you look closely you can still make out the mold parting line across the meplat.

It's pouring rain and howling wind today, but it's supposed to be better tomorrow.  We'll see.  I the meantime I can make more cartridges.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline old fogey

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Re: New bullet for percussion 44s
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2017, 05:52:15 PM »
Sorry, just re-reading this thread and for first time realized that you were wanting a "h-p" version of your bullet. If you hollow point your mold (there's these instructions on how to do that) you'll be able to cast "solid"-tip bullets again (you'll just have to use a "filler" rod) but it would be more of a "pita" than a solid mold.

Seem to recall a thread of someone using a plaster-of-paris home-made bullet-mold to test the feasibility of one-off proto-type bullets (seemed like he cut the plaster with a thin-kerf bandsaw, then used aluminum tape cut out in the shape of his bullet-outline to coat each 1/2 of the mold and then added the "hollow-point" to the 'finished' mold), just can't find it now! Also recall having seen one using wood, but think I'd go with the plaster of paris myself (do recall he let it dry for a week before cutting it, iirc)!

Offline Omnivore

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Re: New bullet for percussion 44s
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2017, 10:46:04 PM »
Here's one thing about seating lead bullets all the way out to the cylinder face; gas cutting of the bullet.  That's something I've never seen, nor heard of in all my reading about guns, loading and shooting.  The last bullet of a full chamber fired will have been cut from both sides too.  in big game hunting in WA State, I'm only carry two loads in the gun, one capped and ready and the other un-capped.  So I could keep the two charged chambers separated by an empty in between.  In other words; this doesn't mean this load can't be used.  It's not a big deal anyway, but you can carry three charged chambers and get zero gas cutting.  I just found it interesting that it happens at all.

I checked the bullets adjacent to the fired chamber while firing other loads-- So long as the bullet is below the cylinder face by some small distance, a bit less than an eighth inch, there is no observable gas cutting.  More later, but I thought this was worth it's own comment.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 10:53:45 PM by Omnivore »
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Omnivore

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Re: New bullet; ballistics data
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2017, 08:13:57 PM »
I did some shooting with the new 45-225L bullet on Sunday.  Three hours on location, 66 shots fired over the chronograph, four revolvers.

All loads were in the form of paper cartridges using Olde Eynsford 3F powder.

All loads containing extra lube use Gatofeo #1.  All caps used were Remington #10 on Treso nipples.  All bullets had the lube grooves filled with GF1 and were sized to .450".

Ambient temp was about 51F, or about as warm as it's been here in six months.

Uberti 18" carbine, 30 grains, lube cookie (card, pill, card), (had to seat extremely hard - not a practical load with that cookie), six shots;
Hi: 997 fps
Lo: 947.7
ES: 49.3
Av: 965.6 = 464 ft lbs

Uberti 18" carbine, 30 grains, card (no lube pill), top lubed, 12 shots;
Hi: 1053
Lo: 1001
ES: 52
Av: 1025 = 523 ft lbs
SD: 15.5

Uberti Walker, 45 grains, lube cookie, 12 shots;
Hi: 1083
Lo: 1019
ES: 64
Av: 1037 = 535 ft lbs
SD: 16.1

Pietta Remington 8" standard, 30 grains, card, top lubed, 12 shots;
Hi: 890.2
Lo: 830.2
ES: 60
Av: 864.4 = 372ft lbs
SD: 18.8

Pietta Remington 8" inox Target Model, 35 grains, card, top lubed, 12 shots;
Hi: 993.2
Lo: 933.6
ES: 59.5
Av: 958.8 = 457 ft lbs
SD: 15.1
(This would be my hunting load if the gun weren't a bit too small to be legal on deer in WA State)

What I did NOT try was a 35 grain charge under this bullet in the 18" carbine.  I'm not even sure it would fit without deepening the chambers slightly, but I think it would.  The Pietta inox took it fine, but this Uberti has a tiny bit less chamber capacity.  Unfortunately I didn't take enough ammo with me to find out.

Note that, with the same bullet, 30 grains and no lube cookie, the 18" carbine delivers nearly the same ballistic performance to the 9" Walker with 45 grains.  One way to look at it is; the carbine's extra nine inches of barrel adds the equivalent performance of and additional 15 grains of powder (in this example, but don't bank on that number when it comes to other loads, 'cause it doesn't work like that).

I shot an awesome group (sort of - for me) with that 45 grain load from the Walker at 31 yards.  More on that later, once I've taken up a magnifying glass to better discern the number of holes in the target.  That will be my hunting load, should I decide to use the Walker next season as opposed to the Remington carbine.

Also; that GIGANTIC Walker cylinder arbor soots up and gets hard to turn like no other.  After a couple of shots, I was helping it along with my support hand to advance the cylinder for practically every shot.  I can shoot a Remington all day and never have that problem.  That's not an issue when hunting (I fired a whopping one shot last season), but it's a little annoying in a plinking session.  In the past I even tried a double-pill lube cookie, to no avail.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline cap and baller

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Re: New bullet for percussion 44s
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2017, 06:06:48 AM »
Very interesting findings with your new conical!  I should start saving up for a chronograph seems like its worth knowing and add a bit of fun to the range.

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: New bullet for percussion 44s
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2017, 12:04:01 PM »

[/quote]

Is that necessary to get that particular bullet to ram in straight and/or is it peculiar to a flat tipped plunger?  I’m using 45-190’s just now on stock Pietta Colts and Rems and leave the gun on half-cock during loading.
[/quote]

I made my flat faced plunger out of bronze to so it wouldn't ding the cylinder if there was misalignment when pressing the bullet in.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.

Offline Omnivore

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Re: New bullet for percussion 44s
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2017, 11:03:04 PM »
Since activity on the forum lately has been low, here's a photo of the new six pack that Roman Pacheco and I made for the Walker/Dragoon revolvers.  It's designed to hold cartridges of up to 50 grains and a 200 grain bullet, or 60 grains and a round ball.  The core inside is 3D printed from ABS plastic.  The lid snaps securely into the box and has hinges.  The matchbox style jacket is made from thick card stock, with a self adhesive, ink jet printed label.

The 45 grain cartridges you've seen earlier in this thread.  They contain the new 225 grain bullet (Accurate Molds 45-225L) and contain commercial SPG lube (just so as to try something different) in the form of a lube cookie.

This six pack is a prototype.  Once we decide on final cavity dimensions, the box core will be printed from wood fiber filled PLA and look more like wood, but otherwise it's the same design.  This allows you to carry six ready-to-load carts in your pocket in a case roughly the size of a cigarette pack only thinner, and knock it around any which way, without damage to the paper cartridges.  A few of those, plus the rounds in the gun, and you're good for a multiple kill pig hunt, or just a fun day of plinking.  The cartridges and a snail capper contain everything you need.

This is but one component of the total "Field Carry" system we've been talking about, and which I've been working on for some time.

P.S. There's still no section in this forum for consumable envelope cartridges
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 12:55:54 PM by Omnivore »
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: New bullet for percussion 44s
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2017, 12:27:46 AM »
Nice box, even has a place for the cartridge pigtail! The label is cool too.
Brad Potter, hardware junky.