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Offline Old and grumpy

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Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« on: March 22, 2017, 03:35:20 PM »
 It did not take long to get tired of the mess of filler under the ball and lube over it when I started shooting Cap&Ball. I figured there had to be a better way than costly felt wads and the mess of grits or coffee grounds and crisco. So I came up with this.

I got fiber filler wads from BPI.  They are 1/2" long. Soak them in your melted lube. I wrap them in rags put that in a zip lock bag and let them bake in the sun on the dash board of my truck so the excess comes out. Then with a blade cut them in half to 1/4".

They work as filler and lube. I use the un lubed ones in BP cartridges.

For $10 I end up with 1000 wads. No mess ,no punching out felt. No time messing with crisco or filler. PS- using coffee as filler smells good!

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Fiber-Cushion-Filler-Wad-1_2/productinfo/FC/
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Offline Hylander

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2017, 05:39:52 PM »
Why use filler of any kind?

Offline Hawg

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2017, 08:10:58 PM »
Why use filler of any kind?

Some people claim wussy loads are more accurate. I think they just can't handle the recoil of full loads. Now where did I put that flame suit?  {_K
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Offline Hylander

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2017, 11:22:58 PM »
Why use filler of any kind?

Some people claim wussy loads are more accurate. I think they just can't handle the recoil of full loads. Now where did I put that flame suit?  {_K

 (?^

My normal accuracy load is 30gr. fff 777, gives about 1000fps and recoil is still pretty mild.
I have stuffed the cylinder as full as I can get it and recoil is still not heavy.

Offline Omnivore

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2017, 01:10:50 AM »
I think I got some wads just like that from Circle Fly, years ago, ordered through TOTW.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

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Offline Hawg

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2017, 11:28:28 AM »
My normal accuracy load is 30gr. fff 777, gives about 1000fps and recoil is still pretty mild.
I have stuffed the cylinder as full as I can get it and recoil is still not heavy.

I don't use T7 but that's my usual load of Swiss and Pyrodex. Kinda funny but I made a vid of my stepdaughter shooting my 44-40 with 37 grains of Pyrodex when she was 13. You couldn't hardly tell the gun moved watching the vid but if you stopped it and watched it frame by frame her left hand came completely off of it and the muzzle was pointing straight up.  )L$
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Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2017, 03:27:44 PM »
Dear Friends,
            Why use any wads? Even Old Sam Colt himself said not to use them!! Not that I count Old Sam as a reliable Tutor in today's
"Day & Age!" However let us look at what happens when you shoot a load out of a Cap & Ball Revolver.  Let us also assume for the sake of this discussion, that your caps, Powder, and projectile are all suitable for the revolver you are using!
            When the shot is fired, the cap produces fire, which jets into the powder, which expands very rapidly and forces the ball out of the chamber, and down the barrel!  Now NO LUBE, no matter how excellent it's properties are supposed to be, is going to do that first shot ANY GOOD whatsoever if it is placed BEHIND THE BALL!!!!!  To lube the first shot down the tube, the lube HAS TO BE IN FRONT OF THE PROJECTILE!!!!!
            Some lubricants on the market, are somewhat misleadingly named! For example, "BORE BUTTER!!!  A complete newcomer to the world of Percussion Revolver shooting, could be forgiven for thinking that due to it's NAME, it could be very properly used as lubricant in front of the balls, in lubricating the passage of each ball as the revolver was fired! NOT SO! For this product is very SOFT!  The powerful blast that is partially disipated by the very small gap twixt the Face of the cylinder, and the rear of the barrell, is SO POWERFUL, that ALL THE BORE BUTTER THAT YOU HAD PLACED IN FRONT OF THE BALLS IN EACH OF THE SIX CHAMBERS, would ALL be TOTALLY DISIPATED, by the expanding flames that would, When the gun was fired, bounce back off the rear of the barrel, and blow all the soft BORE BUTTER to a greasy film over certain parts of the revolver, where it would do no good whatsoever! (Save possibly to delay the commencement of rust, should the owner fail to properly clean the gun when he finished shooting!  It  is generally accepted that a 50% by 50% mixture of Beeswax and Sheep Tallow, is the ideal lubricant to keep your gun shooting all afternoon, with no problems that cannot be solved, with a quick wipe over with a rag!
            Now SOME commercially Sold Revolver Wads are sold PRE-LUBED with God Knows What!  I (Back in the days before I learned Better!!) I once purchased some from our local Cabeles!  I reloaded ONE cylinder with these wads, placed between the powder charge and the balls, and exactly ONE WEEK later, when I fired that cylinder all six shots DID go off, but they sounded more like six wet farts, than six revolver shots. The grease on the wads had so contaminated the powder charges in that cylinder, that I could plainly  SEE the balls, as they made their leisurely way to the target! I could have gotten higher velocity with a slingshot, and glass marbles!!!!! Now the makers of these wads that are pre=lubed by the factory, do not on the outside of the packaging, inform you what the lube is made of!!!  In this case I strongly suspect that the lube they used was Olive Oil!  For it made the six powder charges so weak, that had I been in an area where some of the animals hunted therein, could view Human presence with a degree of annoyance,( Texas Wild Hogs for example!) then  I could have been in a world of hurt!
            Elmer Keith, the Idaho Cowboy, and VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE HUNTER, had as his first Handgun a Navy Colt Percussion
in .36 Caliber. HE loaded this weapon with wads made from an Old Hat! (Undoubtedly pure wool Felt in that day and age! Elmer wrote that he cold leave that gun loaded for a year, (The wads were lubed with Lamb Tallow!) and all six rounds would fire instantly! I do not use wads at all, for to buy commercially made ones adds at least $7.oo to every hundred shots you fire,and I personaly find it a lot easier to just put some of my lube OVER THE BALLS in the cylinders, as the penultimate stage of the completion of the loading of all cylinders I have fired that day.  The FINAL Stage being the pressing onto the nipples of fresh caps.  Now Elmer Keith was Deadly with any handgun he carried, and I am not anywhere near that good. Not by a long shot!
He was so good, he hunted Grizzlies with a handgun!  He was the driving force behind the developement of both the .357 and the .44 Magnum revolvers!  Yet back around 1919, he was so confident in is own abilities, that he'd carry that old Colt Navy when policeing his trap lines,  and often shot such hard to kill predators as Bobcats with it. ( And a Pissed Off Bobcat, aint nothing you'd want to tangle with!)
            I always feel, that any gun I am carrying, should be loaded in such a way, that barring a failure of a product, that I have no control over, Such as the percussion cap, it will infallibly go BOOM each and every tie I press the trigger.  When I returned to Arizona after spending a year in Wyoming, I did not fire a single shot while in that state, and shortly after I returned here, I went to my favorite spot in the desert, and fired all sixteen cylinders off.  that's 96 rounds!  I had three,"Failures to Fire." However when I put fresh caps on those three chambers, All three went off instantly.  So any opinions heretofore expressed by certain members as to the the potential unreliabilities of the weapons I carry, were out to rest!  Some of the cylinders i shot off that day had been loaded in excess of TWO YEARS!
            The only modern weapon I ever carried that NEVER had any sort of a hang-fire, or miss-fire was my Colt 1911 Auto, Gold Cup, in 45 ACP. I did all my own reloading back in those days, and was fanaticallu careful whenever I did so!  Yet every now and then, a Primer would be a little weak, or somesuch, and I would have a failure of one kind or another.  Not so since I began to carry Percussion  guns in the 1990's  Well not once I got into the swing of them again!!!
            I feel that I have a Psychological advantage, since any one who faced off against me, would be bound ro be put off by a revolver that in addition to blowing  very large hole in him, would also set his clothes of fire! (Or with regard to the artificial fibers used in 21st century garments at least Melt them!)  Besides which I KNOW Betsina, my principle, "Carry Gun,"  And as The Late Elmer Keith once pointed out, the, "Smokescreen," out put by Blackpowder charges, is more of an an Advantage to the shooter,
using the older gun, that the the person using the more modern propellants!  The smoke produced is more easily seen through by the shooter, than by the person  being shot at! So said Elmer Keith, and he lived in a period when black Powder weapons were much more commonly used, than the more modern weapons!At least in the first half of his long and eventful life!
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« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 03:35:22 PM by Gunslinger9378 »
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2017, 04:38:19 PM »
Johnnie; it depends on what one believes is the purpose of using "lube".  I say there's no reason whatsoever to actually lubritate the bullet against the bore-- Not at BP revolver pressures and velocities.  I say the only reason to use "lube" is for keeping the powder fouling soft enough that all the fouling from the previous shot is blown out by the next, thus resulting in no build up of fouling.

Thus it is that the very term "lube" can be misleading.  Something like "fouling mitigator" would be a more properly descriptive.

In that case, the lube will be most effective if it's behind the bullet where it can mix with, and be left behind with, the powder fouling. Having it in front will result in most of it being pushed out in front of the bullet where it can do no good.

The concept is best explained in John Fuhring's article on the subject;
http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps3Mobile.html

I add that the only time I've noticed barrel leading (the prevention of such being the reason why "lube" is used in modern, smokeless cartridges, totally unlike the application we're discussing) in a percussion revolver is when enough powder fouling built up in the bore to restrict the bore ("burying the rifling" as Fuhring puts it) thus resulting in the compound problems of increased pressure and abrasion on the bullets.  I've observed that a small amount of lube can actually make that problem worse, and so determining the right amount of lube is as simple as observing the barrel fouling after on shot, and again after a large number of shots.  If there's enough lube in your load there will be no difference in the degree of fouling between that left behind after the first shot, and the last.

Again I say that if you intend to fire only a few shots, as in hunting, then you don't need any lube at all.  Load powder and lead only, just as Colt recommended.

As for wads of felt or other such, which are another subject entirely; if they result in noticeably better accuracy for whatever reason, then use them.  If not, why bother?  Also; maybe a card wad would do as much without taking up as much space.  BPCR competitors sometimes use cards, claiming a purpose similar to that of a gas check-- protecting the soft lead bullet base, but that's in a rifle with a heavy bullet and a heavy charge of powder...

I submit also that a lot of what we think we "need" comes from good marketing.  If we don't use wads or Bore Butter we aren't spending money on them, and that's a problem of another kind, unrelated to the quality of our shooting.

The "bottom line" it seems to me would be found in the size and consistency of your groups on target.  We might come up will all manner of elegant "solutions" without having identified problem.  If you can get consistently small groups with a clean gun, and maintain those small groups with a gun that's fired as many shots as you'll ever fire in a day, then you're doing it right, whatever it is you're doing.

In hunting, if you can fire a single shot and put it where you want it, that's the best you can do.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline Old and grumpy

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2017, 08:41:49 AM »
Why use filler of any kind?

Some people claim wussy loads are more accurate. I think they just can't handle the recoil of full loads. Now where did I put that flame suit?  {_K

Back when there was no powder to be had and guys were lined up 50 deep on delivery days to get one can, a light load was better than no load.

So my wads solved several problems.

  #1 I am cheap-- They are cheap.
  #2  Filler-- Smaller charge more rounds fired per can that I could not replace-- And I am cheap.
  #3  Much less mess from grits and lube.-- I am lazy.
  #4  The fiber scrubs the crud out of the bore very well.-- Again less work for me. I am lazy.

Lazy is the mother of invention.

I also use them in my Kentucky for buck shot loads . Full wad under, 1/2 wad over the buck to keep them from falling out.

PS--- When I reload after cleaning and know that it will be some time before I fire them I load full charge with no wad and lube over the ball the old way.  Thus no messed up powder.  I also put a TINY drop of nail polish on the outside of the cap to seal it and keep it from falling off. So far after sitting for months this has not messed up any caps. Only cap failure was from oil in the nipple. That only happened once! I learned.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 09:19:04 AM by Old and grumpy »
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Offline Hawg

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2017, 09:20:44 AM »
Why use filler of any kind?

Some people claim wussy loads are more accurate. I think they just can't handle the recoil of full loads. Now where did I put that flame suit?  {_K

Back when there was no powder to be had and guys were lined up 50 deep on delivery days to get one can, a light load was better than no load.


Nope. If I had run out of powder I would have hung them on the walls for ornaments.
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Offline Captainkirk

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2017, 09:37:05 AM »
Interesting solution. I have in the past, doubled up on wads when shooting wussie target loads, but if you are pinching pennies, it adds to the cost of shooting. With my BP range fees of $30.00 a day, pinching pennies is pretty much a moot point...
As Omni and Hawg point out, there are many different ways and reasonings for how to load BP and what with. In the end, none is more "right" than the other. Do what works best for YOU. For instance, Johnnie loads his cylinders for personal defense and expects them to stay loaded for the long haul. I load my cylinders to be torched off in rapid succession as fast as I can make it up to the firing line. Different strokes for different folks.
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Offline Hawg

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2017, 09:46:45 AM »
I use wads soaked in olive oil and allowed to dry. They won't contaminate powder. These days I pretty much load and fire but in the old days I might have one loaded for a few hours or a few days. I wouldn't use a wad over shot in a shotgun. I use a thin over shot card punched out of a Coke carton.
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Offline Gunslinger9378

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2017, 01:54:40 PM »
Dear Omnivore,
            If that "GeoJohn," feller is that STUPID TWIT, who has a web site, where he tells one and all, that to use WATER to clean  a Black Powder Revolver is almost a Capitol Crime, well that Bastard needs to be sent off to the, "Ffunny Farm!"  I answered him when I first came upon his site, and very politely, told him he had his head up his ass,as I belonged to a Forum, where a great many knowledgeable shooters regularly met, and most of the more experienced members, regularly cleaned their guns with water, or Soap and water, and that most had been happily doing so for years!  That their revolvers had been giving satisfactory Service for more years than HE,(The GeoJohn Feller,) had been drawing Breath!Also, Also, that no harm had ever come to any of the members Guns that had been cleaned in this manner! So why was he deliberately mis-leading Newcomers to our pastime?  The guy got REALLY NASTY! Told me to never darken the portals of his web-site again, that he was blocking me from visiting the site, and was really quite Obnoxious, and Hateful about it all.  I laughed so hard I almost had a personal accident, and had to hobble for the bathroom clutching my person, to avoid having to have an emergency session with the Washing Machine! and since Ana and I were still married at that time, having to endure her comments about my lack of,"Self Control!!!
            The guy was apparently paranoid, that my opinions concerning the, "Care & Maintenance of Percussion Revolvers," might rub off on some of his Loyal Readers," and he thus might appear less, "Godllke," to them!  Like the Old Saying from Yorkshire goes: "There's Nowt so Queer as Folk!"
            At the time I wrote of this Person on this forum, and as I had guessed, many of the More Experienced members also regularly cleaned their Dirty Guns with Good Old H-2O!  Maybe we ought to re-Christen this deluded fellow, and change his name to Brazil?  Well he is some kind of a Nut is he not???
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2017, 02:04:23 PM »
Johnnie; I'm not saying that Fuhring is the know-all, be-all, end-all of percussion revolver experts.  I do however find his writings interesting in spite of the possible errors.  He has given me some good ideas, which I appreciate.  As the saying goes; even a broken clock is right, twice a day.

He says that with his loading technique, he only swabs the bore and chambers, puts the gun away, and it's fine for extended periods.  There's enough "shooting grease" left behind to protect the steel.  Regardless what one thinks about the effects of "hot soapy water" the fact that he's found a way to make in unnecessary means faster, easier, simpler cleaning, and that's a good thing.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.   James 1:25 (KJV)

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.   James 2:12. (KJV)

Offline G Dog

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Re: Lubed over powder wad/ filler
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2017, 02:14:07 PM »

      Maybe we ought to re-Christen this deluded fellow, and change his name to Brazil?  Well he is some kind of a Nut is he not???
                                                                                       Gunslinger9378.
                                                                                        Gunslinger9378.
   

Brazil?  Any relation to Donna?  Bobo maybe?  I don’t think you like that guy, Johnnie.  Mike Beliveau (duelist1954) cleans like that too.  What do you make of that?
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".   
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