Author Topic: Blue MZ  (Read 1322 times)

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Offline Classanr

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Blue MZ
« on: August 03, 2016, 04:44:22 PM »
Alliant now has 50/50 pills in "Blue MZ".

I am going to presume for discussion sake the following:
Hogdon owns the patent to the compressed pill, but that no longer matters for Alliant, which now has some sort of rights, or has worked its way around the patent, or will get sued, or will get purchased by Hodgdon as was the case with Pyrodex, IMR, Winchester powders, and Goex.

Therefore, I will also presume that Blue MZ is BlackMZ with a dye change and the powder packed tight like it loves to be packed.

I have 24 of these pills.  Packaging says 209 primers are needed to light these off.  I doubt that.  I think their market is inline MuzzleLoaders, so they simply state "made for 209 primer ignition."

Each pill has a hole running down the middle (most likely to assist in ignition - spark on bottom, inside, and all around the outside all at the same time).
Each pill hole is .124 in diameter, and each pill is .453 wide.

These 50/50 pills are not going to fit into most 1858 cylinders.  Close, but no cigar.
However, they are going to rattle around in a 50cal
  So much for the "no air gap under the bullet" theory.
  But they do say the bullet performs "best" if resting on the pill.

Each pill is .6779 in tall (.68"), so I'm thinking of ways to cut the pills in half around the mid-section to get 25gr equivalents into 50cal target shots, with a 10gr BP kicker for a starter.  Put both into a "powder bag" with a wad/ball combo twisted in a-la-Omnivore's little piggies; then drop the package into a barrel and ram the lot down.

One of these will drop right into a Smith case - presto 50gr equivalent, the original Smith load.
You could use a 209 converter nipple and 209s for caps if you want, but I'm certain a decent musket cap will light these off, especially with a dab of loose powder at the flash hole.

Oh, and tangentially, Winchester Magnum #11 caps fit my 1858 Pietta stainless like gloves and do a grand job of lighting up the powder.  Walmart carries them.
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Offline mazo kid

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Re: Blue MZ
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2016, 05:05:16 PM »
So....those "little blue pills" are too big for 45 caliber and too small for 50 caliber. Seems like someone doesn't have much of a clue. How much of a problem would it have been to design the mold for either or both of these calibers?

Offline Classanr

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Re: Blue MZ
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2016, 05:33:06 PM »
So....those "little blue pills" are too big for 45 caliber and too small for 50 caliber. Seems like someone doesn't have much of a clue. How much of a problem would it have been to design the mold for either or both of these calibers?

Well, no, therein is not the problem.
The problem is that the substitutes do not have an absolute need for "no air gap" under the bullet/ball.
But they are billed as "just like BP" so they continue to encourage the BP tradition of getting the danged bullet down as far as you can.  That way some moron won't say "If I can leave an air gap under Triple Se7en, then BP must behave the same way."

Substitutes are smokeless powders with smoke properties (added sugars and/or non-nutritive sweeteners) and retardants tacked/coated on so they more-or-less behave the way BP is expected to behave.  Consider the major difference between BP and BlackMZ when it comes to compression.  Seriously-compressing BP will slow down its burn.   But BlackMZ gets faster and faster the tighter you compress it.

So for the 50grain pills, they make them just a tad too wide to cram into an 1858.  The entire 50gr would otherwise fit under a 44cal ball.  Disaster!  But they want all the surface area they can with pills to get them ignited as best as possible, so the air gap all the way around is beneficial.  For pills in a 50cal, that is.
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Offline mazo kid

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Re: Blue MZ
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2016, 10:46:06 PM »
Ahh, I see. I have never used anything other than holy black, so don't know about all these new fangled "powders" that are just like black but not quite.

Offline Hawg

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Re: Blue MZ
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2016, 01:18:39 AM »
Ahh, I see. I have never used anything other than holy black, so don't know about all these new fangled "powders" that are just like black but not quite.


I'll stick to Pyrodex, it's about as close to real black as you can get without actually being black. Mainly what they did was swap the potassium nitrate for potassium perchlorate.
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Blue MZ
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2016, 02:35:43 AM »
I use a 30 grain black powder kicker charge in my 44 revolvers, with no pellet.  It took me a while to discover that "monoplex, sans pellet" (MSP) load after much experimentation.

You can get T7 in 45 caliber, 50 grain pellets if you want to take a walk on the wild side with your revolvers;
https://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven-pellets.html

I dunno.  I played around with the "30 grain" Pyrodex revolver pellets for a while in my Remington Army.  They occasionally exhibited a delayed ignition, so then I started playing around with initiators at one end, and then I realized that plain old black powder would light off nicely all by itself, and if I used all black powder then I would no longer need two kinds of propellants to make a load.  Eureka!

A patent on a Pelletized powder?  The concept goes back at least 150 years, I believe.  I wonder if anyone at the patent office knew that.

If you have a fairly straight flash channel, I'd think the musket caps would do OK on the pellets in your rifle.  If they light off reliably with no perceptible delay, the pellets are handy.  I'd still playing with the revolver pellets if they didn't need a kicker to make them reliable.  I just figured that any further fuss was negating what would otherwise be their handiness.

Offline Classanr

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Re: Blue MZ
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2016, 11:23:44 AM »

A patent on a Pelletized powder?  The concept goes back at least 150 years, I believe.  I wonder if anyone at the patent office knew that.

One cannot patent a "thing" or a "state of being", but one can patent the process to get there.  If you write your patent application correctly, you capture the "thing" by owning all the ways to make it.
However, the USPO is indeed a bit dense. To date they have issued over a thousand patents on hard boiling an egg.  It's a challenge to most new patent attorneys to see if they can weasel up still another bogus patent on hard boiled eggs. I'm pretty sure that when you read the patents in your name that they carefully describe "an improved way..." or "an improved method...", your device there after being detailed as a component critical to the process of accomplishing the improvement to humankind.
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Offline Classanr

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Re: Blue MZ
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2016, 11:40:15 AM »
MSP loads.  Love it (T^
Loose BlackMZ is just a tad bit better than wet BP.
Filling a paper cart with a pellet would be a nice trick.
Experimenting with a pre-made pellet allows theory-test without first having to conquer the pellet-making process.
Pellettizing BlackMZ up to now was all theory and hot air.
Now there is hope for substantive trials.
For instance, glue a pellet to a ball, drop the BiPolarObject into the bore or chamber.  Did I mention that I am concurrently developing convenient loads for a 50 cal Trapper pistol, a 50 cal Hawken rifle, a 44 cal revolver, a 22 cal revolver, a 10 gauge pin fired shotgun, and a breech loading Smith, all using the cases of BlackMZ at my disposal?

Pellets of appropriate sizes are worth considering, although none are on the market. Pellets of BlackMZ would (in my opinion, yet to bet thoroughly tested) best bring out the energy to push the ball with the lowest standard deviation. I care about shot consistency much more than smoke.
Jim Beam me, Scotty!  Life here is more intelligent than I.

Offline Hawg

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Re: Blue MZ
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2016, 12:44:08 PM »
I care more about originality than shot consistency altho most of my shots are pretty consistent. As for using Pyrodex sometimes you have to use what you can get but I still refuse to use T7 or any of the other "wonder powders" or pellets.
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Offline jdurand

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Re: Blue MZ
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2016, 08:01:50 PM »
I guess it's good then that my patent says "A way to...", no improvements, just new.  Wow, something new under the sun!  :)
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Offline Lead Balls

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Re: Blue MZ
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2016, 08:29:19 PM »
So....those "little blue pills" are too big for 45 caliber and too small for 50 caliber. Seems like someone doesn't have much of a clue. How much of a problem would it have been to design the mold for either or both of these calibers?

Well, no, therein is not the problem.
The problem is that the substitutes do not have an absolute need for "no air gap" under the bullet/ball.
But they are billed as "just like BP" so they continue to encourage the BP tradition of getting the danged bullet down as far as you can.  That way some moron won't say "If I can leave an air gap under Triple Se7en, then BP must behave the same way."

Substitutes are smokeless powders with smoke properties (added sugars and/or non-nutritive sweeteners) and retardants tacked/coated on so they more-or-less behave the way BP is expected to behave.  Consider the major difference between BP and BlackMZ when it comes to compression.  Seriously-compressing BP will slow down its burn.   But BlackMZ gets faster and faster the tighter you compress it.

So for the 50grain pills, they make them just a tad too wide to cram into an 1858.  The entire 50gr would otherwise fit under a 44cal ball.  Disaster!  But they want all the surface area they can with pills to get them ignited as best as possible, so the air gap all the way around is beneficial.  For pills in a 50cal, that is.
When I first got my 58, I mistakenly loaded 30 grain 777 pellets in it, and I got lucky on it not blowing up. Ooops.... maybe that's why they make these ones a bit too big to fit, just to stop idiots like me from doing stuff like that?
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