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Offline necessaryevil

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Powder charge
« on: February 28, 2016, 03:49:20 AM »
Gentlemen.

Can anybody tell me how much FFFG BP one can squeeze into these little guns. Obviously they need all the oomph they can get. I use home cast .322 dia lead balls and RWS or Remington caps.

I shot it the other day with BP for the 1st time. I measured the powder out with a with a 9mm Luger case a level scoop. That gave me 13.2 grains on my electric scale. I load off the gun initially with a plastic hammer and then a brass punch. I found out it does not compress like Pyrodex !
So I had to shave off a bit of the ball.

So WEIGHT using my scale and not volume, how much will they take maximum without having to trim the ball ?

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2016, 05:39:28 AM »
Hi evil, Mike puts 10gr BP (volume) in his 1863, see:


The flask I use with my 1863s is set up to throw 12gr volume. Note that I also use a loading stand (Tower of Power) to seat the powder and ball.

Having said that, I now almost exclusively use a Howell 32 S&W conversion cylinder in the steel framed 1863.

Regards,
Richard
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Offline DD4lifeusmc

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2016, 08:02:32 AM »
well I guess it would be pretty simple for you to figure out.
You know your current load is too much.
using your scale, reduce by one grain or ounce or whatever you are using.

pour that in the chamber.  use a micrometer to measure the remaining space ( depth)
is that deeper than your ball is in diameter?  If so adjust minutely till the ball just seats.
Should take one 2 maybe 3 measurements.
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Offline necessaryevil

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2016, 02:40:26 PM »
well I guess it would be pretty simple for you to figure out.
You know your current load is too much.
using your scale, reduce by one grain or ounce or whatever you are using.

pour that in the chamber.  use a micrometer to measure the remaining space ( depth)
is that deeper than your ball is in diameter?  If so adjust minutely till the ball just seats.
Should take one 2 maybe 3 measurements.

I don't have a micrometer.

I have just reloaded both of my cylinders with 11.2 grains by weight. The ball seats well below the chamber mouth no problem. Next time I will increase it somewhat and see how close I can get the ball to just below the chamber mouth.

Offline necessaryevil

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2016, 02:46:05 PM »
Hi evil, Mike puts 10gr BP (volume) in his 1863, see:


The flask I use with my 1863s is set up to throw 12gr volume. Note that I also use a loading stand (Tower of Power) to seat the powder and ball.

Having said that, I now almost exclusively use a Howell 32 S&W conversion cylinder in the steel framed 1863.

Regards,
Richard

Hi Richard. Yes I have seen that video. Very interesting.

So I am wondering how much is 12 grains by volume on my digital scale ?

Those Howell conversion cylinders look great. Not available here in Spain, even if they were it would put the gun in a different licencing class. Having to have it locked up in a Police approved safe and all of that nonsense we have to suffer here.

Thanks

Steve

Offline DD4lifeusmc

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2016, 05:14:40 PM »
well   I meant a dial caliper not micrometer.
I don't have one of them guns so can't give you any more help
The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps.
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Offline M9Powell

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2016, 02:23:46 AM »
I don't have 1 either, but it seems to me that due too limited capacity they r begging 4 T7 or Pyrodex P both of which compress better & have more bang per volume.

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2016, 05:35:56 AM »
Hi evil, here is a post where I measured the actual weight versus 30gr volume for different powers. See:
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=6410.msg101647#msg101647

You can use the weight ratios for any other loading.

Regards,
Richard
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Offline Omnivore

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2016, 02:15:08 PM »
Quote
I have just reloaded both of my cylinders with 11.2 grains by weight. The ball seats well below the chamber mouth no problem. Next time I will increase it somewhat and see how close I can get the ball to just below the chamber mouth.

Well there you go; that's your answer.

I would add that in the 44 caliber Piettas, not all cylinders have the same chamber dimensions.  I have one Pietta that takes my 30 grain, lube pill, Lee 200 bullet cartridges just fine with room to spare, and another Pietta that won't take them without shaving the tip of the bullet, even after HARD compression of the BP.  I would not be surprised to find that the pocket guns exhibit similar variances in chamber volume.

Also; when you're using black powder, there is no such thing as a "grain by volume".  I wish we'd all stop talking as if there were.  In fact there is no such thing as a "grain by volume" in any case, being that its only definition would be "the volume of one grain of black powder".  The only time we care about that would be in using substitute powders.  Otherwise a grain is a grain is a grain.

When you're talking about black powder then, please don't talk about "grains by volume".  The grain is a unit of weight only (one 7,000th of a pound)

We can communicate properly only when we understand what we're saying.

Thus it is that if we weigh a charge from an "18 grain spout" we are NOT "converting" "grains by volume" to "grains by weight".  Rather, we are determining the accuracy of the supposed "18 grain" spout.

Keep in mind also that the volume of a spout is only part of the mechanical system that determines how much powder you get.  The flask has space under the spout, down to the valve, and that space PLUS the volume inside the spout determines the actual throw.  So the spout designation is only an approximate value.  Weigh charges from the same spout, using different flasks, and you'll get different average throws.

It is up to you to know how many actual grains your gun takes.

Black powder doesn't compress nearly as much as T7 or Pyro, but it does compress some.

Throwing charges from a flask spout by holding your finger over the tip of the spout to fill it, you'll get variances of several grains from one throw to the next.  That’s because the pad of your finder is soft, and it pushed into the tip of the flask depending on how much pressure you’re putting into it AND what part of your finger pad is in contact with the spout.  Therefore if you're trying to get every last grain that will fit into your chamber, you'll have to weigh charges - not practical in the field, but since I use a Lee Perfect Powder Measure to throw charges for my paper cartridges, my charges are as consistent as those used in modern, metal cartridges (+/ - about one tenth grain, giving a variance range of about two tenths AND it's faster than using a flask and spout).
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Offline jdurand

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2016, 02:28:29 PM »
Big note:  Charges are given in grain equivalents.  This is a VOLUME measure.  If you weigh something like Pyrodex, you'll be getting WAY more than you wanted.

Hogden does NOT recommend weighing Pyrodex, they add filler to make it come out right by the volume measurement. 
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Offline snake-eyes

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2016, 03:06:50 PM »
Hogden does NOT recommend weighing Pyrodex, they add filler to make it come out right by the volume measurement.
JD,
     Is that for safety reasons, convenience or for financial gain?
Do you know what filler they use? Does regular modern powders have fillers
also? Just wondering (^h
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Offline jdurand

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2016, 04:03:48 PM »
Starting some time back (like before I started reloading as a kid) people doing reloading started measuring powder by scoops.  Of course the first scoops were calibrated by weighing out the powder and seeing how much room it took up.

Time passes and powders got reformulated (smokeless and black).  Now if you weighed out the powder, it would take up a different amount of room than black powder did.

Do you get a different set of scoops for each type of powder, for each batch?  For commercial manufacturers of ammo, yes.  More like they use adjustable volumetric measure and calibrate it to each new batch of powder by testing samples.

For us normal humans, it's easier and safer to add filler to make all the powder come out to the same volumetric measure.

The upside is you get WAY more than 7000 grains of volume in a pound of Pyrodex, so you get more bang for your buck.
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Offline snake-eyes

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 04:17:37 PM »
JD,
    What you say makes sense (T^
Thanks
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2016, 04:30:58 PM »
Hi Omnivore, as long as we are stuck with that arcane system of measuring power for BP guns, we need to differentiate between actual weight and representative weight, i.e. weight (volume). As a long time smokeless powder cartridge reloader, this BP weight (volume) system drives me nuts. However, it is what it is.

Modern steel is used in BP firearms, but we still remain in an ~150yr measurement system. Each of the different powders have a different density, but can vary based on moisture content and manufacturing.

I try to be specific when not using actual weight when measuring BP and specifying loads by weight (volume).

As I told you once before, I find my BP revolver cylinder chamber volumes consistent chamber to chamber and cylinder to cylinder. Having said that, most of those cylinders were purchased over the last few years after Pietta got it manufacturing act together.

Regards,
Richard
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Offline necessaryevil

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Re: Powder charge
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 04:40:35 PM »
Hi evil, here is a post where I measured the actual weight versus 30gr volume for different powers. See:
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=6410.msg101647#msg101647

You can use the weight ratios for any other loading.

Regards,
Richard

Thanks for that, I will certainly check it out.